stannrodd

Fair enough.

I agree. Point taken.

Stann

__________________
It riles them to believe
That you perceive
The web they weave ..
And keep on thinking free...

Graeme Edge

cmar1965

Well actually Phil, it is YOU whom first brought the books dating prior to 6BCE or after 6CE into the equation. I merely fulfilled your request of:

with examples of books dating back significantly earlier than 6BCE.



Again, you have not advised in which context you mean "reliability"? In what way? Content of document? Age of document? Could you please qualify that?


Perhaps for some, but I actually don't have issue with the content of the bible per se, and I have it placed on our bookshelf between the books of mythology and fantasy fiction. Fits there perfectly! ;)

Yes, I realise there are many "prophecies' and as you stated the "confirmation" of any of these things actually(or alleged) BEING fulfilled are in the pages of that book and that book alone. They too are all quite vague and therefore allowing liberal interpretation. I assume too you are referring to Daniel as to the alleged "exact" date of jc's - or "the messiah's" "arrival"? hmm.. uh hu! You are making the claim, can you support it?

You know it's funny Phil. I rarely if ever hear non-"believers" use the word HATRED(I did just now simply to reply to you on this point), well at least the ones I associate with. I do have to say though in my christian days, the word rolled off the tongue of just about each and every person (including myself) i associated with, like saliva, dribbling down a Rottweillers mouth. The bible however promotes hatred,jealousy (Jealous IS "gods" name, remember), fear, oppression, submission and supression so it is not difficult to understand WHY these things are in the forefront of the christian "mindset". I for one will never go back to the conformity of that negative promotion as these negative connotations do not promote love in any way, except "love" ONLY for Mr Jealous.

I realise you are an advocate of the Pauline doctrine, however I note you mention specifically and regularly "Mars Hill". yes that is all good and just one example of his alleged commentary, however, what of Pauls (going by what you "believe"..from KJV) bully-boy tactics elsewhere? He was an arsehole, quite frankly, so was the Mars Hill speil "love talk" or manipulation?

I am happy to investigate each and every one of the Pauline "letters" with you here if you like Phil and any other "prophetic claim" you want to explore.

Let me know.

Phil Jayhan

I only used the word "hatred" because most people wouldn't know the meaning of the more perfect word "enmity." But I have heard non-believers use and over-use the word time, time again and time immemorial. So perhaps your just not listening hard enough.

I will reply to a few more points as time permits, but for now am distracted with trying to find a ride into Fairbanks to take care of some business.

cheers-
phil

__________________
Phil Jayhan 9/11 Blog | Phil Jayhan v666 Blog | Frederick Bastiats Audio of "The Law"

"In disquisitions of every kind there are certain primary truths, or first principles, upon which all subsequent reasoning must depend." --Alexander Hamilton

cmar1965

Do you know what Pup? You don't have to apologise to me for anything. You follow what floats YOUR boat. As I said before though, please don't ever assume what you "belief" is THE truth to EVERYONE else.

It is saddening however that you wouldn't find your life worth living if there was death in the end, because inevitably that IS what happens. (go to a cemetary and see that it IS the reality). However, in DEATH, regardless of anything we do still "live on" in some way. VERY "base" and "blunt" way of putting it, but whether buried or cremated, the PUP you are NOW, will just rejuvinate other life AFTER. AGAIN "blunt". WE are bio-degradable. We "breakdown" in the after death form to be part of NEW LIFE( plants and bugs absorb "us"). Even when those bugs or plants die, they too "break-down" and the process continues. YOUR own existence therefore is "eternal" (as such). Just not the floating on a cloud to the "side" of your claimed "living" jc.... or are you? Who is to say that at least a "part" of "him" does not occupy the life of the plant growing next to yours? Just putting that "out there", Pup.

I can appreciate why you are "bowing out".

That being the case. pleasr try to enjoy the life you have NOW as it is also saddenning to realise your faith is based on what you assume is "awaiting" you in your biblical "AFTELIFE" only.

cmar.

yes, "your god" CREATED evil and darkness. IS that SIN to you, PUP? If not, define your interpretation of evil and darkness.:

The very concept of sin comes from the bible. Christianity offers to solve a problem of its own making! Would you be thankful to a person who cut you with a knife in order to sell you a bandage?


If it does not corform to your own personal TAUGHT doctrien as to what "sin" is, could you please give examples?

As you know, in a previous post, I quoted the 1 corinthians babble back at you. I have little doubt you know that particular verse verbatim, however:

I do understand what love is, and that is one of the reasons I can never again be a christian. Love is not self denial. Love is not blood and suffering. Love is not murdering your son to appease your own vanity. Love is not hatred or wrath, consigning billions of people to eternal torture because they have offended your ego or disobeyed your rules. Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being.



cmar

Phil Jayhan

Cmar,

Yes this is true. but it is profound and hard to understand as it contains many paradoxes. God creates in us free will. And it would not be free will if he forced us to obey him, believe him, etc... Thus for him to create beings in his image, that are free, there must remain a possibility that they can rebel against him. Thus, to create free beings, includes, and must include the possibility they will turn to evil and darkness. Or else they wouldn't have free will in the first place.

And there are several other paradoxes as well, but thats the short of it Cmar--

It's all about "choice." In this sense, God is "pro-choice."

cheers-
phil

__________________
Phil Jayhan 9/11 Blog | Phil Jayhan v666 Blog | Frederick Bastiats Audio of "The Law"

"In disquisitions of every kind there are certain primary truths, or first principles, upon which all subsequent reasoning must depend." --Alexander Hamilton

cmar1965

The thing is Phil, there is no "free will" or "free choice" when speaking about the ALL OMNI "god", or don't you as a christian "believe" in the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent...etc.. depiction, IE: all seeing- all knowing, pre-ordained etc etc etc?

Is not your "god" "ALL"?

Phil Jayhan

You forgot one Cmar, which is another one of the paradoxes. He is "All Loving." And "Love" itself. God is love. All the other things, believed apart from this would indeed present him as a possible monster of sorts. But when one believes he is "Love" then all those other attributes have a common connection.

It really comes down to faith Cmar. Which, not coincidently, is an act of the will, which all of us are capable of. But not all of us are willing.

cheers-
phil

__________________
Phil Jayhan 9/11 Blog | Phil Jayhan v666 Blog | Frederick Bastiats Audio of "The Law"

"In disquisitions of every kind there are certain primary truths, or first principles, upon which all subsequent reasoning must depend." --Alexander Hamilton

Iscribe2

2 penny thoughts

Good and evil:
As a parent you "know" what will hurt, maim, and/or kill people. So you teach your children about "dangers" and how to avoid them. You say "do this" or "stay away from that or else this will happen" and kids will test things to find out if what you said is true and/or learn by failures and accomplishments.
What if you said "don't do this or you will die" not to punish, but that it was just a natural result to follow what you did (like if you stepped off a 25 story building. Splat. dead.)
KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL
what if, as a child, you were protected, and so knew only good. and the temptation is not about what you know--what you already have known--but about the unknown--what you don't have, so you choose to KNOW evil--and then you realize that to know evil you must see every facet, every ugly vile abhorrent thing about what evil is, because if you don't, your choice to know evil has not truly been honored. And the parent realizes what the child in its innocence does not. And so, the child stepped off that 25 story building. As a parent, what would/could you do?
children will do that, test the boundaries. How do you keep your children from stepping off that 25 story building?
What are some things that typical parents do?

CMAR?
Anyone else here a parent?
Boundaries: do you impose any?

I have and do.

Gotta go, sorry to interrupt. Back to you all now

__________________
--Isaiah 49:24 & 25

Phil Jayhan

Thanks for the interruption, more than welcome. Thats kind of how I see it. We are all Gods offspring, as we all come from Adam as our Federal and Collective head. But we are lost in the sense that we do not have our natural and normal spiritual instincts any longer, due to Adams sin, and him handing down his newly aquired sinful nature to his progeny.

And God steps in and says "Don't do this.." Don't do that..." I don't find it intrusive in the least. And who can really argue about most of the precepts God lays down in his 10 commandments?

Don't steal. Thats a good one that leads to social harmony;
Don't lie. Same thing. It's helpful when trying to build a civilization;
Don't be fer committing adultery. Who can argue with this one? Many people who have done this sin, have ended up 6 feet under by an angry spouse.
Don't be fer committing "false witness" against your neighbor.. Again, I see only good coming from this.
Don't murder. Thats a good one as well. Don't see the real harm in that commandment.

The other 603 commandments, statutes, and ordinances in Moses law were only imposed upon Israel, and all of them seem to make the same sense to me as well.

But inscribe, I find your simplicity helpful and easy to follow. God loves us. And because we have lost our "spiritual instincts" due to sin, we need them for guidance.
He gave them to us out of love, and not otherwise.

But I know first hand how people can see these as restrictive and not out of love. As I have been there. Done that. And have learned what in my opinion is a more excellent way.

cheers-
phil

__________________
Phil Jayhan 9/11 Blog | Phil Jayhan v666 Blog | Frederick Bastiats Audio of "The Law"

"In disquisitions of every kind there are certain primary truths, or first principles, upon which all subsequent reasoning must depend." --Alexander Hamilton

Phil Jayhan

And one last thing, for all the people who want to claim the bible is fairy tales, make believe, and a carefully crafted 3000 year old hoax, what does it matter to them? If the bible is false & queer as a 3 dollar bill, then why do people waste so much energy trying to convince people it is a fairy tale? Why?

If it is all false then why do these people waste any energy on it whatsoever?

If the bible is false, then why don't they ignore it like they do every other lie in the world, and can I tell you, there is no lack of lies and bullshit in the world. Why do they spend so much time expended trying to make this book into a lie and convince others of the same?

If the bible is false, then why do people convinced of this waste a second of energy on people who believe it? Why? And again I ask why? Don't they have better things to do with their precious and time, which runs out and shorter each and every second?

If people believe it is a lie, then why do they waste so much time on forums, magazines and TV trying to make others believe it is a lie? If it is a lie after all, then it is just a lie. It can't hurt anyone, because it is simply a lie.

If Gods account of creation as found in Genesis is a lie, then why do people spend so much time trying to prove otherwise? What is their agenda? Why do they spend so much time and a good chunk of their temporal loves trying to convince others of this?

What is their secret and personal agendas? As people don't often tell what these are, and keep their own motives secret, what motivates people, who claim to have no afterlife, spend so much of their present-life trying to debunk the bible? Wouldn't their time be better off spent on doing the things which they enjoy? So what is their agendas?

Why do these people spend so much time trying to make others believe the bible is a lie and a huge fairy tale?

I personally know that such books as the book of Mormon and the Jehovahs witness fake Bible are lies, and complete and utter falsehoods, yet I won't spend any time going to forums which preach this nonsense and trying to convince them otherwise.

Why do people who believe such things are lies, falsehoods, and the like, spend so much of their time and energy trying to make people believe they are lies, and fairy tales?

I think these are good questions for such people, and would like to know the answers for them....

cheers-
phil

__________________
Phil Jayhan 9/11 Blog | Phil Jayhan v666 Blog | Frederick Bastiats Audio of "The Law"

"In disquisitions of every kind there are certain primary truths, or first principles, upon which all subsequent reasoning must depend." --Alexander Hamilton