Debate Stemming From "Caution Re: Jesuit Exposes" - Page 19

Iscribe2 · 12 Dec 2007 , 03:58 AM

Parent: No, I have told you I don't want you having anything to do with so and so. You get your butt back in here right now. You are on restriction.

Teen: No! I am going out with so and so and you can't stop me!

teen grabbed hold of so and so's arm and they turn and leave, so and so smirking over shoulder back at parent. Parent calls cops. They say "so what." parent cries.

2 months later neighbor of parent calls: your daughter is asleep in my carport. Please come and get her.

Parent rushes over. Finds daughter in fetal position, no longer breathing. fat rubber band and needle lying on cement next to her arm.

person · 12 Dec 2007 , 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Jayhan

Quote:

Originally Posted by person

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Jayhan

The point is simple enough, at least to me, that Gods laws aren't meant to be restrictive in the least. They are there to protect us, as well as to teach us how to live as a society.

Number 2 on the top 10 I believe

Quote:

Thou shalt have no other gods before me

If it is omnipotent then why even the need for this, especially at #2?
Sounds like a shit scared, made the fuck up god, with an inferiority complex.

How friggin restrictive can you get?

Yes it is simple stuff Phil.

You see, I guess it is just perspective, person. I view myself as made by God, for infinite happiness, and this perfect happiness only comes from worshiping the one true God, whom I view him to be. And when man or woman strays from this truth, it makes us miserable. (e.g.To worship gods who by nature are not a God.)

Thats why I said above it is all really according to perspective. I see that commandment as something which frees a person. Thou shalt have no other gods before me is a liberating commandment because there are no other true gods. There is only one. So, ya, it's according to perspective. Inferiority complex? God? I don't even know how he could have one being the Supreme God of the Universe, and all powerful.

He could us squish like a bug in a nano-second if he wanted to. But thats not his nature. He is kind, forgiving, merciful and full of undeserved kindness. Like I said, its all about perspective. And your perspctive of God is completely different than my own.

Cheers-
phil

I knew I shouldn't have bothered.

Iscribe2 · 12 Dec 2007 , 04:15 AM

make up your own senario. Parents need to be restrictive.
Even cougar cubs that stray too far or
play after they've been warned to knock it off are reprimanded.

Those who do not heed warnings wind up hurt.
Those who refuse to see the love behind the restrictions
and who continue to rebel against those restrictions
get hurt.

It is not that the restrictions are restrictive or the setter of the restrictions
it is the consequences of not believing they are put there for your good.

Highway signs: hairpin turn ahead. Speed limit 20mph.

But you rebel against that sign and its maker. How dare they even post it and impose a speed LIMIT for this upcoming corner!
So you gas it to 50, 55, 60mph.

Neither Phil nor I can stop you. God could, but hey, He honors your free will. You want to go do that corner YOUR way, you can. You want to live without God? He will let you. So will Phil. So will I. But your rebelliousness does not change the fact that restrictions like that road sign were set there out of love for you.

Iscribe2 · 12 Dec 2007 , 04:58 AM

One more thing before I shut up and go to bed

in the book I read the thou shall have no other gods before me one IS a part of number one, not 2.
The bottom line choice set before all people is this: Life or death.

God reminds people that to choose Him is life and to not chose Him is to chose death.
This is just the way things work, like gravity. Like physics.

One year, When we had a big holiday dinner we invited guests and other "guests" invited themselves and we made them welcome in our home. Now, I laid out the table and all the feast and everyone gathered around. My husband took off his hat and motioned to the other young men to do so to, and then he bowed his head and began a prayer of thanks.

One uninvited guest chose that time to rebel against "our" prayer, boasting about his rights to athiesm and about how our prayer was offensive to him.

Were we then obligated to that self-invited guest to serve him? Were we within our rights as the home owners and feast providers to escort him out the door or to "talk" with him about respecting us in our home? (We chose the "talk" but he could take it or leave it.)

Is God in anyway obligated to those who chose not to chose Him? How come, if that is your choice, do you hold Him responsible for it? It strikes me as strange for those who chose not to believe in God to get mad at God for imposing restrictions within His own creation.

Goodnight.

person · 12 Dec 2007 , 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iscribe2

Were we then obligated to that self-invited guest to serve him? Were we within our rights as the home owners and feast providers to escort him out the door or to "talk" with him about respecting us in our home? (We chose the "talk" but he could take it or leave it.)

Yes
Doesn't your jesus teach you to "love your enemy" and "turn the other cheek"

Quote:

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

Is this what your jesus said?

Are you now a hypocrite

Quote:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
hyp·o·crite [hip-uh-krit] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belief stated beliefs.

2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

[spoil:1836689ac1]You christians just really shit me.[/spoil:1836689ac1]

Edited to remove inflammatory remark from view.
Person please refrain from such comments they are not helpful or relevant.
Stann (moderator)

Phil Jayhan · 12 Dec 2007 , 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stannrodd

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

You know Stann, I never treat you like this here. Why the "intentionally insulting words m8?" If I wanted to be insulted by people just wanting to be mean for the sake of being mean, I would go to Jack Bloods forums. You know something Stann, this is like the third time in a 3rd post which your openly insulting me. Maybe I think what you believe is nonsense, but have had enough courtesy just not to put it that way, like you just did down in the debate section. Sorry I took the time to respond to that stupid thread! It seems that lately I cannot respond in any threads you are in without being openly insulted. Like you say, take responsibility for your own actions Stann. Quit blaming others. And all that happy horseshit. And please don't respond with some lame excuse that you didn't know you were being insulting, because I know better! And so do you!

Phil
Where are the insulting words?

How was I being mean?

I know you think that what I believe is nonsense .. so what. Water off a ducks back to me.

Quote:

It seems that lately I cannot respond in any threads you are in without being openly insulted.

Should I leave the forums

Discussion of belief systems will always arouse emotional reactions. Debate on the pros and cons of these beliefs will create friction. This is a FACT ! .... not FICTION.

You operate from within a belief system and your view (and others who are like minded), appears blinkered from the perspective of the rest of the free thinking community. If you want to challenge how I believe .. FFS ... go for it, stop being courteous !

I have very strong feelings about how the universe and all things Are. So do you. These two views are mutually exclusive, there will never be a winner. Discussion will end in argument and ultimately a war of words.

If you feel insulted then don't participate in these types of threads. It's the same advice I offered LHChihuahua77 and which you supported me in. LH has graciously decided to bow out of the discussion. You have decided to up the anti and lay some weird guilt trip on me, disguised in your terms, as an insult. That doesn't hold water for me. There was simple criticism of yours and others type of belief structure. That is not a personal insult nor a general one. Taken personally and out of context you can construe it that way .. the wonders of language !!

Get over it M8 and my apologies if you felt insulted.

Simple answer don't allow this sort of discussion.

Stann

Stan,

Glad we had the talk tonight and I do now see why you thought I was picking on you and treating you differently now. I just answered a post by person basically telling me the person I think is my God, is a frelling idiot, and I didn't take it personally. But when your like 100 times nicer [Than person was) than this and simply say you think it is nonsense, then I take it personally. And I understand the double standard you accused me of, and was guilty of, much better now.

Personally I wish we could all simply frame this discussion in carefully crafted words which leave off insults of others ideas, inasmuch as humanly possible, and simple state what we believe and why we believe it. Because it accomplishes what we want to attain, and it doesn't leave a trail of bitterness and things taken personally.

But thanks for the talk as I now understand what it is you were feeling and why you got mad at me or felt like I was using a double standard with you. And also that you were justified in feeling that way.

Thnx-
Phil

**cmar1965** · 12 Dec 2007 , 15:44 PM

Quote:

Come on Cmar, this is simple stuff, you have to be pulling my plug m8. The analogy is relevant. The evil party was the burning pot of oil.

You cannot be serious? The OIL is the evil party? Did it pop itself on the stove, rev the burner up to highest heat and then in some way coerce you over so you had no other option BUT to pour it over yourself?

That's akin to someone claiming the bullet is the "evil party"when someone picks up a loaded gun and decides to go on a shooting rampage.

Quote:

The point is simple enough, at least to me, that Gods laws aren't meant to be restrictive in the least. They are there to protect us, as well as to teach us how to live as a society.

Phil the purpose of ANY law, your gods or otherwise is to restrict. If they weren't why even put them out there?

Quote:

I guess perhaps one of the things we should discuss is why some of us see God and the bible as non restrictive, and liberating, while others see the same book as a prison. And why the former see's Gods love, while the latter only see what they perceive as negative attributes, and an angry God.

I for one don't see the bible as a prison. I see it as a book of contradiction and hypocrisy, with a "do as I say not as I do" attitude to it.

EG: Thou shalt not kill.... however your god ordered people to go out on smitefests in his name!

Thou shalt not steal .....however in the book, jc sent his mates up to town to untie someone elses colt and swipe it for him.

Breaking of these "gods laws" seems to be ok though as long as "god" ordains it, *shrug* Damned if you do and damned if you don't.....if you DON'T do as "god" commands, SMITE.....if you DO as "god" commands, well you have broken the laws anyway so...SMITE (ie; banished to the lake of fire)

I fail to see how any of that could even be construed as a more "excellent way" Phil.

**cmar1965** · 12 Dec 2007 , 17:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iscribe2

make up your own senario. Parents need to be restrictive.
Even cougar cubs that stray too far or
play after they've been warned to knock it off are reprimanded.

I agree with you that parents need to be restrictive and place certain boundaries, and of course there have been times when both my children have gone against certain rules and as a result consequences followed. However, never have I said to either of them that a consequence of any of their actions, would result in being stoned to death, cast into a lake of fire, attacked by shebears etc etc etc... I love my children far too much to ever threaten them like that, however your "heavenly father", seems to dig using the fear, wrath and submission angle ad nauseum.

I realise you have kids too Iscribe. Would you EVER threaten your children with death for disobeying your boundaries/rules/restrictions? Do you love them any less if they go against you? Do you think they love YOU any less when they cross those boundaries?

Quote:

Those who do not heed warnings wind up hurt.

With that mindset, human beings would not do anything, so there is quite obviously certain "warnings" people don't heed out of life necessity.
EG: We have all seen on Tv news, stories of people being killed or injured in their workplace, in a car accident, people walking across the street and being hit by buses..etc... Seen news stories of houses burning down because of electrical fault, we see news stories about natural disaster...cyclones, hurricanes, tsunami etc... stories of plane crashes, rail crashes....should I go on?

these things are warnings that these things DO or COULD happen, however people still go to work, drive cars and cross the street, live in houses and even rebuild houses AFTER natural disaster on the same block of land, still get into aircraft and onto trains...etc etc.

So what are people supposed to do Iscribe? Sit on a rock somewhere and do nothing? Hmm hang on, that natural disaster thing... you could be sitting on that rock and a tornado could whip you up in its frenzied whirlwind...what is a girl to do?

Quote:

Those who refuse to see the love behind the restrictions
and who continue to rebel against those restrictions
get hurt.

Well I have to say, since I left the "god" stuff, my life has been a lot happier and far more fulfilling, as I am now concentrating on better things. I see the god belief stuff as selfish and ultimately self serving. YOU save you and you alone in your quest for "salvation". Certainly you can try to coerce others to your way of thinking, but those "deeds" you are doing external to you, to try and get others into the clique, serve no one else BUT YOU. Obviously that is dependent on what "inerrant word" you believe, There are MANY so it is difficult to keep up! ;)

Quote:

It is not that the restrictions are restrictive or the setter of the restrictions
it is the consequences of not believing they are put there for your good.

Indeed. the bible is conditional. Do this OR ELSE - your dead.

Bible god is such a paranoid, conditional dictator. Either/OR....with "him" there is nothing else it seems.
I am an atheist now, and some "christians" have tried to tell me that being the case, I am either A) saved regardless as I was a "christian" or B) I never was a REAL ONE in the first place! lol

I tell you something iscribe, IF those commandments Moses allegedly came down with..etc.. IF they had not been set in stone (pardon the pun) would we all be wandering around like little gods, stealing, raping, and spilling blood whenever our vanity was offended?"...

Oh hang on, that is happening now ANYWAY and usually by the hands of the "godbotherers" allegedly doing it in "his" name.

Oh the irony!

Quote:

Neither Phil nor I can stop you. God could, but hey, He honors your free will. You want to go do that corner YOUR way, you can. You want to live without God? He will let you. So will Phil. So will I. But your rebelliousness does not change the fact that restrictions like that road sign were set there out of love for you.

Well that sort of contradicts the OMNI-all-ness of your "god". There is no free will when all, as far as "god" is concerned has been planned out since "the beginning".

;)

Phil Jayhan · 12 Dec 2007 , 17:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by person

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iscribe2

Were we then obligated to that self-invited guest to serve him? Were we within our rights as the home owners and feast providers to escort him out the door or to "talk" with him about respecting us in our home? (We chose the "talk" but he could take it or leave it.)

Yes
Doesn't your jesus teach you to "love your enemy" and "turn the other cheek"

Quote:

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

Is this what your jesus said?

Are you now a hypocrite

Quote:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
hyp·o·crite [hip-uh-krit] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belief stated beliefs.

2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

Edited to remove inflammatory remark.
Person please refrain from such comments they are not helpful or relevant.
Stann (moderator)

Stan,

I almost wish you would have left the comment and post undisturbed because it shows the hypocrisy of persons attitude and total and complete intolerance of Christians. **I know, damned if you do, and damned if you dont**

It just shows persons enmity towards people who profess Christ, while I really have none towards him. The intolerance he displays is quite apparent. Isn't it ironic? <Said like Allanis Morrisett>

Well, off for a burger and some pool.

cheers-
phil

**stannrodd** · 12 Dec 2007 , 17:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

Stan,

I almost wish you would have left the comment and post undisturbed because it shows the hypocrisy of persons attitude and total and complete intolerance of Christians. **I know, damned if you do, and damned if you dont**

It just shows persons enmity towards people who profess Christ, while I really have none towards him. The intolerance he displays is quite apparent. Isn't it ironic? <Said like Allanis Morrisett> Laughing

Well, off for a burger and some pool.

cheers-
phil

I've restored the remark but hidden from view

People can now choose to view the comment.

Stann

12 Dec 2007 , 03:58 AM	#181
Iscribe2 Privileged Join Date: 7 Oct 2007 Posts: 334 Threads: 33 Thanked 161 Times in 102 Posts	Parent: No, I have told you I don't want you having anything to do with so and so. You get your butt back in here right now. You are on restriction. Teen: No! I am going out with so and so and you can't stop me! teen grabbed hold of so and so's arm and they turn and leave, so and so smirking over shoulder back at parent. Parent calls cops. They say "so what." parent cries. 2 months later neighbor of parent calls: your daughter is asleep in my carport. Please come and get her. Parent rushes over. Finds daughter in fetal position, no longer breathing. fat rubber band and needle lying on cement next to her arm. __________________ --Isaiah 49:24 & 25

12 Dec 2007 , 04:15 AM	#183
Iscribe2 Privileged Join Date: 7 Oct 2007 Posts: 334 Threads: 33 Thanked 161 Times in 102 Posts	make up your own senario. Parents need to be restrictive. Even cougar cubs that stray too far or play after they've been warned to knock it off are reprimanded. Those who do not heed warnings wind up hurt. Those who refuse to see the love behind the restrictions and who continue to rebel against those restrictions get hurt. It is not that the restrictions are restrictive or the setter of the restrictions it is the consequences of not believing they are put there for your good. Highway signs: hairpin turn ahead. Speed limit 20mph. But you rebel against that sign and its maker. How dare they even post it and impose a speed LIMIT for this upcoming corner! So you gas it to 50, 55, 60mph. Neither Phil nor I can stop you. God could, but hey, He honors your free will. You want to go do that corner YOUR way, you can. You want to live without God? He will let you. So will Phil. So will I. But your rebelliousness does not change the fact that restrictions like that road sign were set there out of love for you. __________________ --Isaiah 49:24 & 25

12 Dec 2007 , 04:58 AM	#184
Iscribe2 Privileged Join Date: 7 Oct 2007 Posts: 334 Threads: 33 Thanked 161 Times in 102 Posts	One more thing before I shut up and go to bed in the book I read the thou shall have no other gods before me one IS a part of number one, not 2. The bottom line choice set before all people is this: Life or death. God reminds people that to choose Him is life and to not chose Him is to chose death. This is just the way things work, like gravity. Like physics. One year, When we had a big holiday dinner we invited guests and other "guests" invited themselves and we made them welcome in our home. Now, I laid out the table and all the feast and everyone gathered around. My husband took off his hat and motioned to the other young men to do so to, and then he bowed his head and began a prayer of thanks. One uninvited guest chose that time to rebel against "our" prayer, boasting about his rights to athiesm and about how our prayer was offensive to him. Were we then obligated to that self-invited guest to serve him? Were we within our rights as the home owners and feast providers to escort him out the door or to "talk" with him about respecting us in our home? (We chose the "talk" but he could take it or leave it.) Is God in anyway obligated to those who chose not to chose Him? How come, if that is your choice, do you hold Him responsible for it? It strikes me as strange for those who chose not to believe in God to get mad at God for imposing restrictions within His own creation. Goodnight. __________________ --Isaiah 49:24 & 25