No, I don't. There's either an injured party or there isn't. No harm, no foul...

Of course there are alleged Pastors etc who frown on things like having a cigarette or a beer once in a while. Is that the kind of thing you are getting at, sister Kathy?

Personally I don't care how much someone either smokes, drinks, snorts coke or is on crack, for all that matters. Just so their use of substances doesn't cause them to hurt other people. Hey, it's free country, right?

JimO

Christ died for ALL of my sins before I was even born. There is no way possible under heaven to get 'partial forgiveness' and there is no other way to stand before God in the gift of Righteousness provided by Jesus Christ, unless one is totally forgiven, as we are all in states of perpetual sin.

Example; No one loves God, 100% of the time, with all his heart, soul and mind. And Jesus said this was the 'greatest commandment' and yet we all break it daily...Even Christians.

Thus the exhortations; 'Let him who stole, steal no more, but rather let him work with his hands that which is good so he might have overflow to give and share with others...

'Put all filthiness and greed away from you'

'Stop lying, one to another, but rather speak truth to one another, in love'

So, when I received Christ, I received a full pardon and forgiveness for ALL my sins, even those not committed yet. Remember, he died for ALL your sins before you were even born.

The Grace of God isn't a kinder, gentler law of Moses. It has nothing to do wit lawkeeping whatsoever. The law, and its commandments, all 613 of them was NEVER given to you or me. It was given to the Jews alone. Remember, God didn't go to the moabites and say;

"You have departed from my law, given through Moses, therefore repent, or I'll squash you Moabites like a bug."

Why didn't he do this? Because he never gave the Law to them, or any of the heathen, gentile nations.

Romans 11 makes it clear it is by Gods sheer grace that we are saved;

This shows that God, totally apart from any works on my part, declares me righteous, because I believe the Gospel/Good news that Christ died for my sins and was raised from the dead. 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4

Lets see if we can find any matches to the above scripture here on Earth.
Hmmm, thinking really hard here now, oh yea, just dawned upon me that the Vatican 'forbids people to marry' as well as ordering them to abstain from certain meats. Hmmm, God says this is not only NOT scriptural, but are actually teachings of demons.

Gee whiz, could this UNSCRIPTURAL forbidding of marriage to the Preists possibly be the cause of why so many of the preists are pedophiles, ruining child after child, and when the Church finds out, they hide it and move them to another parish to do more damage? Thats criminal. And a common practice of Roman Catholics. Because they know if we ever found out the sheer enormity of all their fiendish, sexual ruinations they do to children and find out how widespread is the practive, that we would ALL rise up, and excort every preist to the Loading docks, where they belong, and ship them back to Rome.

And don't even try giving me that line of crap about one bad preist, not until ALL the other preists STOP in the sedition of silence. They ARE ALL guilty by their silence and non condemnation of the faggot pedophile preists that have free reign over America.

"Christ died for your sins and rose on the third day"

Believe this and receive eternal salvation. And BTEW, you won't EVER need no stinking preist for anything, for we have one already; Jesus Christ, our Great high Preist who has gone into the heavenlies and now sits on the right hand of God interceding for us on our behalf...

cheers-
phil

__________________


"In disquisitions of every kind there are certain primary truths, or first principles, upon which all subsequent reasoning must depend." --Alexander Hamilton

"Still, I (Jesus Christ) must tell you the truth:
it is for your own good that I am going
because unless I go,
the Advocate will not come to you;
but if I do go,
I will send Him to you.
And when He comes,
He will show the world how wrong it was,
about sin,
and about Who was in the right,
and about judgement:
about sin;
proved by their fefusal to believe in Me." - John 16:7-9

We either believe what Christ Jesus explicity said & taught or we do not!

"After saying this He breathed on them and said:

'Receive the Holy Spirit (the 'Advocate' of John 16:7)
For those whose sins you forgive,
they are forgiven;
for those whose sins you retain,
they are retained." - John 20:22-23

"So confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, and this will cure you." - The Apostle St. James - James 5:16

"Then Peter went up to Him and said, 'Lord, how often must I forgive my brother if he wrongs me? As often as seven times?' Jesus answered, 'Not seven, I tell you, but seventy-seven times." - Matthew 18:21-22

"I am writing this, my children,
to stop you sinning;
but if anyone should sin,
we have our Advocate with the Father,
Jesus Christ, Who is just;
He is the Sacrifice that takes our sins away,
and not only ours,
but the whole world's." - 1 John 2:1-2

"'Take it and eat;' He said 'this is My Body.' Then He took a cup, and when He had returned thanks He gave it to them. 'Drink all of you from this,' He said 'for this is My Blood, the Blood of the Covenant, which is to be poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.'" - Matthew 26:27-29

"If we say we have no sin in us,
we are deceiving ourselves
and refusing to admit the truth;
but if we acknowledge our sins (in Confession)
then God Who is faithful and just
will forgive our sins and purify us
from everything that is wrong.
To say we have never sinned
is to call God a liar
and to show that His word is not in us." - 1 John 1:8-10

"If your brother does something wrong, go and have it out with him alone, between your two selves. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two along with you: the evidence of two or three witnesses is required to sustain any charge. But if he refuses to listen to these, report it to the community of the brothers (the Church); and if he refuses to listen to the Church, treat him like a pagan or tax collector." - Matthew 18:15-17

"But as for the dishonest servant who says to himself, 'My Master is taking His time', and sets about beating his fellow servants and eating and drinking with drunkards, his Master will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not know. The Master will cut him off, and send him to the same fate as the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth." - Matthew 24:48-51

"It is not those who say to Me, 'Lord, Lord', who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the Will of My Father in Heaven. Whe the Day comes many will say to Me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your Name, cast our demons in Your Name, work many miracles in Your Name?' Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from Me, you evil men!'" - Matthew 7:21-23

Many people, perhaps too many people, have a bible from which they extract for themselves every manner of false teaching never uttered by or taught by Christ Himself. And yet so many, with these bibles in their possession, fail to accept His Own Church's teaching of what His Church's bible actually says!

The bible does say this:

"These are the the points that uneducated and unbalanced people distort, in the same way as they distort the rest of Scripture - a fatal thing for them to do. You have been warned about this, my friends; be careful not to get carried away by the errors of unprincipled people." - 2 Peter 3:16

- Lazarus

Another lie. Nowhere does the Church forbid people to marry. Becoming an ordained catholic priest is completely voluntary, no one is forced to take any oaths of celibacy under any kind of duress or threat of excommunication of any kind whatsover.

Rather is is the Protestant, Freemasonic state that forbids people to marry without getting permission from the Protestant- Freemasonic -Government -at- Large first. If you want to get married you must have the permission of goverment which involves getting a marriage license. This rule is imposed by the Government on its citizens, not by the Catholic Church.

It used to be that Catholics were asked to abstain from eating any kind of meat, other than fish, on fridays. It was not considered a mortal sin if this rule was not observed. The idea was that it was supposed to be in remembrance of the fact that Christ died on a friday, and it was a mere token gesture of a catholic's self control of the desires of the flesh, in honor of the fact that Christ willingly surrendered his very life for us. Sadly, in my opinion, this requirement has been removed several years, and now Catholics may eat any kind of meat any time they want.

As to your other disgusting comments about "fucking priests" this and "faggot priests" that , Phil, I have refuted this elsewhere, and yet you continue in your arguments as if no one said anything to the contrary of them.

JimO

Christ Jesus builds His Church - not man, nor men with His Church's bible.

"So I now tell you: You are Peter and on this rock I (Jesus Christ) will build My Church." - Matthew 16:18

And Christ's Own Church is both a historical and intergenerational reality since He began His Own Church:

"Glory be to Him whose Power, working in us, can do infinitely more than we can ask or imagine; glory be to Him from generation to generation in the Church and in Christ Jesus for ever and ever. Amen." - Ephesians 3:20-21

Christ Jesus' Own Church has a Hierarchy which gives His Church its historical and intergenerational consistency, stability and continuance from generation to generation through time and into Eternity, for ever and ever. Amen.

The Church's Own Bible biblical verses which record, establish and validate the position of the Hiearchy within His Own Church here on earth, starting here:

John 1:40-42
Acts 2:42-47
Acts 6:1-8
Acts 20:17-30
Acts 21:16-19
Romans 12:3-8
1 Corinthians 3:10-17
1 Corinthians 12:12-30
2 Corinthians 8:3-5
2 Corinthians 8:16-24
Ephesians 2:19-22
Ephesians 3:20-21
Ephesians 4:11-13
Phillipians 1:1
Colossians 1:6-8
Colossians 1:18
1 Thessalonians 5:12-13
1 Timothy 3:1
1 Timothy 3:8
1 Timothy 3:13
1 Timothy 4:13-14
1 Timothy 5:17-20
Titus 1:5-8
Philemon 1-3
Hebrews 3:4-6
1 Peter 5:1-5

The Book or Revelation irrevocably establishes that Christ Jesus is Himself the Head of His Church and used/uses His earthly appointed Apostles and the Elders they appoint to the Church which meets in diverse geographical regions of this world. That's what the Book of Revelation was/is meant to reveal! The Book of Revelation has Christ Jesus Himself telling the members of His Church to hold fast to what the members were taught and instructed by His Own Apostles! And the Book or Revelation reveals what the members of His Church here on earth are participating in alongside with all the angels and saints in Heaven with Him in His Own Church's Divine Liturgy which is the Mass of His Western Church or the Divine Liturgy of His Eastern Church!

When people decide that they can steal the Bible from Christ Jesus' Own Church and start their own church, they've decided to start a man made religion which overtly denies exactly what Christ Jesus Himself, the Only Eternally Begotten Son of the Living God can to earth to teach, preach and establish here on earth by His Own Divine Power!

The Gospel records Jesus Christ's Own Divine Father saying to us all:

"This is My Beloved Son. Listen to Him!"

And His Only Begotten Son Jesus, the Christ, asks of everyone on earth:

"Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord' and not do what I say?"

Some of us might know the prayer which contains the words "Thy Will Be Done, On Earth, As It Is In Heaven".

So why are there so many people with their bibles starting their own man made religions, their own churches if you will, and preaching and teaching things that Jesus Christ never taught - and these same bible church starters actually deny and reject what Christ Jesus Himself says and which is recorded in black and white in their own man made church's stolen from the Catholic Church's bible???

Twisted religion and twisted religious studies results in twisted people who, in turn, twist the entire human race, twist human history and wind up actually believing they are 'saved' while they are actually on the highway to hell?

It's high time we begin to untwist the twisted teachings of bogus arch-apostles who have a stolen copy of the Catholic Church's bible in their hands so that we might have a fighting chance to save our nation and our world from twisted "I'm Saved And I Can Do Whatever I Want!" individuals who call themselves Christians.

President Bush says he's "saved" - and look how many people throughout the USA and our world have been murdered in lying, cheating, deceiving cold blood!

- Lazarus

I remember something about this, he said he was a born again christian and got "converted" by talking to Billy Graham or was it some other non-catholic preachy fellow? Do you have a reference for this, Lazarus? This is a very interesting observation if it's really true. Please be careful and don't say anything you can't back up, Laz, the wolves here will eat you alive if you're wrong about something. I don't remember Bush saying specifically that he was "Saved". Are you sure?

JimO

President Bush's christianity was a matter of public televised discussion on CNN many months ago. His faith was discussed by his parents with the program commentator.

The trouble as a result of this personal bible-based religion which people make up for themselves or for others to swallow hook, line and sinker and who call it christianity is that it is not Christianity at all! Most assuredly, it is not the religious faith taught by Christ who charged His Apostles to preach and teach to all the nations of the world! The Protestant Reformation and its Reformers (actually Revolters) have reduced Christ's Teachings to a matter of personal human preference. Just say you accept Christ and you can do whatever or believe whatever you personally choose to believe. Hence, this type of "personal Savior" is, in fact, the individual himself of herself. He/she decides how he/she is saved! Is this or is this not the fact? And by granting themselves their own personal salvation, the forgiveness of their sins past, present or future, what they grant themselves is a personal license to sin as much as they want, as often as they want in any manner they want. Hence, these types of self anointing and proclaiming christians give themselves moral license to render Christ's Objective Divine Teachings to an entirely subjective human level!

What kind of christianity is it that men and women allow themselves to become entangled which actually denies the Teachings of Christ Jesus?

What type of so-called christianity do bible believing individuals who start so-called bible believing churches start that reject what the bible itself states as biblical teaching?

As you can see for yourself, the religious intolerance of Catholic Christians down through the centuriese since the Protestant Revolt is the result of men and woman not tolerating the Teachings of God Incarnate Himself. God is not religiously intolerant. He ardently desires for all peoples of all nations of all times to hear, accept and put into daily practice His Very Own Religion about Himself! God is Simply Full of Grace and Divine Truth since God Himself is the Christian Grace and the Christian Truth!

This religious intolerance of Catholic Christians here and the world over. It simply distills down to a matter of God's Own Will vs. mere human will. It's a clash of wills, if you. And in the final analysis, all religious intolerance is a clash of wills -mere human will vs. God Divine Will.

Were not Adam and Eve's free will intolerant of God's Divine Will prior to their Fall from Grace? Was not Pharoah's hardness of heart vs. God's Will as relayed via Moses a clash of wills? Was not the rejection of Christ Jesus by His mere human contemporaries a clash of wills? And here on these forums, what do we witness? The same old clash of wills. Those of us who proclaim God Incarnate's Divine Will is superior to any human being's personal will and that His Divine Truth is superior to any human being's personally selected and subjective take on religious truths.

With respect to Christ Jesus' Own Church's Christian Sacrament of Confession for the forgiveness of sin -- the Sacrament of Confession in the Catholic Church requires the individual to make his or her own honest, sincere and accurate "Examination Of Conscience". This personal examination of conscience is an active and accurate personal spiritual inventory taking. We have to examine what is rotten in our spiritual inventories of our very self as well as what is lacking and/or missing which is keeping us from having the fullness of joy in our lives.

Protestants-Sola Scriptura Bible Believers reject the Catholic Church's Sacrament of Reconciliation. It follows that any sort of self-examination is not needed - that what one does or doesn't do is inconsequential to his, her or their spiritual life/lives. This becomes a mere abdication of personal responsibility for what they do as individuals and as a collection or association of like-minded believers. This is why you can have so called 'bible believing' US Presidents order murder most foul on the innocent peoples of other nations of the world, lie through their teeth - and they and their like-minded US Government cronies can do the same - and do all of this and more with an utter and complete disregard for God's Divine Laws and His Church's Moral as well as Spiritual Teachings!

And this is why there have been so many wars - both religious as well as for purely economic or political profit instituted by Protestant Revolt supporting nations/thrones/governments down through the centuries since both the peoples and their rulers have thrown off the concept of personal spiritual responsibility to both their Lord as well as the members of His Extended Spiritual Family of His Own Church.

Setting aside all of the entirely erroneous biblical/theological beliefs of the Protestant Revolters as merely a superficial smoke screen to hide the real underlying reason - the Protestant Revolt with its battle cry 'Sola Scriptura' (meaning 'The Bible Alone') was nothing but a massive continental land and money grab of the property and possesions of the Catholic Church.

So history simply repeats itself over and over again. 500 years ago, people took up the bible and raped/robbed the Catholic Church of her properties throughout Europe. Today, people take up the bible and rape and rob the people and nations of their financial freedom, their sovereign political independence and their oil. "The Bible" and one's personal religious beliefs.

We Catholic Chrisitans have all seen this same old religion/politics cartoon so many times down through the centuries. And it is so incredibly difficult, if not virtually impossible, to take individuals who are rabidly controlled by their own personal religion or personal non-religion, and try to correct them of their errors and their personal behaviors. Such individuals do not recognize 'Sin' as an active, ever present danger to their own and collective spiritual lives! They are either already permamently and perpetually 'saved' as a bible weilding individual or community by their own personal/public profession or proclamation or they simply have pooh-poohed Christ Jesus and His Divine Teachings either myth or of no consequence whatsoever.

The end and net result is the same. The human race's spiritual as well as material welfare and well being here on this planet earth is again placed in jeopardy or is prevented and stymied for many in or on other other regions of the world.

- Lazarus

People's overt religious bigotry and/or their utter ignorance of the truth of human history is yet another immense obstacle we Catholic Christians have to confront day in and day out in our attempts to establish a just and well ordered society - both here in the USA as well as in the other countries of this dying world of ours.

How many times have I, personally, had to confront individuals who falsely and/or maliciously assert that the Roman Emporer Constantine started the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church! While Constantine did stop the Roman Empire's persecution of the Catholic Church - and even returned its property and made some measure of monetary/financial restitution to the Church for the Empire's damages inflicted on her - the Roman Emporer Constantine himself did not accept Christian Baptism until on his death bed.

This discussion of the Roman Empire, its Roman Emporer and the Catholic Church - in particular a specific member of the Hierarchy of the Catholic Church by the name of St. Ambrose, Catholic Bishop of Milan, Italy at the time of the Roman Emporer Constantine - makes for a good lesson in the affairs of and relationship between 'The Church' and 'The State'.

After the Roman Emporer Constantine's Edict of Milan, the Catholic Church began rebuilding a Church building - I believe it was to be a Cathedral - in the Catholic diocese under the oversight of the Bishop of Milan - St. Ambrose.

The Roman Emporer Constantine, hearing of the construction of this Church building - whether it was merely to be a Church building or a Church cathedral - took it upon himself to see this new Church structure in the Roman Empire's city of Milan, Italy.

The Roman Emporer Constantine, alone with his Imperial entourage, came up this new Church building and entered it while the Bishop of Milan, St. Ambrose, was preaching to his Catholic Christian congregation gathered for the Mass.

As the Roman Emporer Constantine entered into the back of the Church building and made his way into the seating area, the Roman Empire citizens recognizing their Emporer began to disrupt St. Ambrose's preaching during the Mass by rendering the Roman Emporer the customary sign of homage and political fidelity by kneeling and bowing while turning themselves towards the physical presence of the Emporer.

The preaching Bishop of Milan, St. Ambrose, upon seeing that the entrance of the Roman Emporer Constantine was causing havoc, disrupting his homily and the orderly conduct of the Christian Church's Mass, stopped his public preaching momentarily, and make the following comment towards the Emporer Constantine and the attending members of his Imperial entourage:

"Even the Emporers of this world have need to hear and learn the word of God Himself!"

Upon hearing these words from the mouth of the Catholic Church's Bishop of Milan, St. Ambrose, directed specifically towards himself, the Roman Emporer Constantine, Constantine is reported to have stopped dead in his tracks - to have rendered the Catholic Christian custom of genuflecting down to one knee as a sign of homage to Christ, the Lord of Heaven and earth - and to have simply entered into the general seating area which contained the average public citizens of his Roman Empire - and sat himself down in the midst of his Roman Empire's subjects to attentively listen to what the Catholic Bishop of Milan had to say, to preach and to teach that in during the Church's Christian Eucharistic Liturgy.

The Roman Emporer rendered onto the Church's Bishop that which was due him. And the Church's Bishop rendered onto the Roman Emporer that which was due him as both a citizen of the Roman Empire as well as a Bishop of the Catholic Church. This small little historical vignette serves to properly illustrated the relationship which ought to exist between 'Church' and 'State'. Mutual recognition. Mutual respect. Mutual assistance. Mutual fidelity. Mutual concern for each other's health, welfare, well-being so that both the Church as well as the State could both properly prosper in the Sight of Christ Jesus, the Lord.

I do not think that there is a single political State currently in existance on our planet earth whose Rulers, Presidents, Dictators, Chairmen, Kings, Queens...whatever title or official designation...that gives two hoots for what the Bishop of Rome, or for that matter, any Bishop of any of the Catholic Church's world-wide Dioceses have to say about virtually anything at all!

The current high and mighty Rulers of the nation/states of our contemporary world don't give two hoots about the very simple things such as truth, such as justice, such as honest, integrity, care and concern for the citizens of their own nation/state or for the peoples of other nations and states.

They most assuredly don't accept the Catholic Church's theological or biblical teachings about Christ Himself. And they most assuredly don't accept the Catholic Church's social and economics teachings, nor do they accept the Catholic Church's teachings about politics and governance!

And as our entire world is currently in the midst of waking up to the fact that it is spiralling out of control towards a Third World War, people from every nation, state and walk-in-life throughout our entire world continue to curse, swear, impugn, discard, insult, belittle and levy every manner of false claim and/or charge against the Catholic Church.

The human race has chosen for itself to be spiritually, morally, ethically, politically, economically, financially, socially and civcily "Insane"! And even this global, world wide Insanity in which we all find ourselves currently immersed itself proves and verifies the Truth of Christ, the Truth of Christ Jesus' Own Church and the Truth of Christ Jesus's Own Church's Canon of Sacred Christian Scripture which reads as follows:

"He came to His Own domain and His Own people did not accept Him."
- John 1:11

"On these grounds is sentence pronounced; that though the Light has come into the world men have shown they prefer darkness to the Light because their deeds were evil." - John 3:19

I suppose that all we really have to look forward to is for the current crop of our world's evil men - whether they be the Rulers of nations or the citizens of these evil doing nation/states of theirs - to embroil all of us in their desire for a Third World War as I do not think the current Hiearchy of the Catholic Church has any intention whatsoever of ever complying with the Mother of Church, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and her 1917 AD Fatima Portugal Request to have Russia publicly and solemnly consecrated to her Immaculate Heart.

If the Rulers/Emporers of nations don't listen to and heed God, and if all those with bibles in their possession don't listen to or heed God, and if the Hiearchy of the Catholic Church chooses not to listen to or heed the Advise of the Mother of Church herself, what possible outcome can there be for the entire lot of us members of the human race except death and destruction on an utterly global scale never seen before in all of human history?

If a simply man like Mr. Jayhan will not listen to me and what I have to tell him , what are the chances of my influencing the thoughts, decisions and desire of the Rulers of the nations of our world, the peoples and citizens of the nations of our world, and the ecclesiastical rulers of His Church here on earth?

I would have to say 'Zip', 'Zero', 'Nada'!

- Lazarus

Lazarus and JimO,

You post all this scripture as if we are ignorant of the New Testament.

I happen to believe EVERY piece of scripture that you posted.

so,what's the problem?

the problem is, there is no mention in ANY of them, of priests,popes,or any of the other trappings of the Catholic church.

And because Tokarm keeps throwing this up, in the biblical descriptions of the last supper, it is clear from the testimony of the disciples that Jesus poured WINE into the cup, and tore pieces from a loaf of BREAD, and proclaimed them to be such!

None of the accounts relate how amazed and awed they were when these items turned to blood and flesh!!

You guys remind me painfully of the no-planers. Like them, I wish you would go away and bully someone else, like Pat Robertson or Lincoln Graham, (hey Phil, did his name ring any bells for you?).

__________________
A LIE BELIEVED BY EVERYBODY IS NOT THE TRUTH

(emphasis added) JO