Well my dear spiritual brother in the Lord, the highest holy day of the Church's liturgical calendar year is quickly approaching - Easter. There comes a point in time when we simply have to recognize that all the time and effort that one can pour into defending the Teachings of Christ and His Church is either of no avail or a complete waste of time with certain types.

The Bible does record the following:

"My dear friends, at a time when I was eagerly looking forward to writing to you abou the salvation that we all share, I have been forced to write to you now and appeal to you to fight hard for the Faith which has been once and for all entrusted to the saints. Certain people have infiltrated among you, and they are the ones you had a warning about, in writing, long ago, when they were condemned for denying all religion (organized bodies of people involved in sacred liturgies and prayers), turning the Grace of God into immorality ('once saved, always saved' and you can sin all you want), and rejecting our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ (fully present in His Own Body and Blood in the Church's Sacrament of the Eucharist)."

We only have so much energy and time with which to do that.

It matters not to the people here how many times and in any number of ways you assert, demonstrate or explain the validity of Christ's Own Teachings His Very Own Church holds and teaches - they have their bibles, they have their own personal interpretations of their bibles...and by gosh, their bibles and their personal interpretations of their bibles is the equivalent to Divine Revelation! Right back to square one - they've deceived themselves into thinking they can make themselves gods and goddesses by their own power of thought!

St. Paul, the Lord's Apostle, records this in their bibles:

"Avoid these futile and silly speculations, understanding that they only give rise to quarrels; and a servant of the Lord is not to engage in quarrels, but has to be kind to everyone, a good teacher, and patient."
- 2 Timothy 2:23-24

St. Paul, the Lord's Apostle, tells Titus

"And in fact you have there a great many people who need to be disciplined, who talk nonsense and try to make others believe it, particularly those of the Circumcision. They have got to be silenced; men of this kind ruin entire families." - Titus 1:10-11

"If a man disputes what you teach, then after a first and a second warning, have no more to do with him: you will know that any man of that sort has already lapsed and condemned himself a sinner." - Titus 3:10-11

I don't know what your personal limit in patience is, but mine is exhausted. I've tried to teach, since I am a catechism teacher but all of these people have done nothing but draw me into one quarrel after enough.

Enough is enough.

What I wanted to share with you is that I've come across a magnificent book with the writings of now Pope Benedict XVI and Catholic theologian
Hans Urs Von Balthasar entitle "Mary - The Church at the Source". ISBN number = 158617018X. I wholeheartedy recommend you getting yourself a copy for your own reading and edification.

If you can't find a copy where you live - or if you might not be able to afford one on your budget (it cost about $15.00-$16.00) - drop me a private message giving me your USPS mailing address, and I'll promptly get one out to you.

I was simply so blessed in spirit in being deepened in my spiritual understanding of the person of the Blessed Virgin Mary that she granted me a very special and personal spiritual Grace to enjoy both the her spiritrual presence as well as the Spiritual Presence of God the Holy Spirit as well for a wonderfully undisturbed period of time the other day.

Man o' man - its simply recharging and revitalizing to be granted a taste of Heaven while our entire world has chosen to merrily go about its way on its chosen highway-to-hell. And brother, the power and utterly refined delicate nature of her feminine nature was simply awesome! What a Mother and what a Sister! You simply must get this book and perhaps share it with your Parish Priest at St. Joe's.

- Lazarus

True --- "we battle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of darkness of this day, against spiritual hosts of wickendness in the heavenly places." You know what's speaking out at us - just gotta bind it and blow it off. Don't let it get to you - look to Jesus and He'll take care of it. (They will have no idea what I'm taking about, this is just for those who know how to spiritually discern.)

Let it go man.....just let it go. I have. ;)

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Jesus is the Way, the TRUTH, and The Life - the 9/11 truth WILL come out, He will not let the LIE stand! The word is getting out by leaps and bounds - let's stand together and be ready - because "the glass is about to overflow"!! ;)
-Kathy

To the contrary, we know exactly what you are trying to implicate. The idea here is clearly that Lazarus and I are "devils", who, by the sheer force our of reason, logic and common sense, are making arguments that somehow you "Born again", "once saved, always saved" Bible thumping TV evangelist wannabees are for some reason unable to overcome without resorting to calling us disgusting names.

Don't worry about that though. No matter what manner of slanders against the Roman Catholic church that you wallow in and help to perpetuate by giving assent to them in this thread, or personal insults that you sling at Lazarus and me, your alleged religion (or non-religion as the case may be) assures you that you have no need of actually coming to either of us and saying your sorry and apologizing for anything directly. According to your TV evangelist inspired doctrines, God forgave you of your disgusting behaviours before you even performed them!

How wonderful for y'all! Congratulations, you are all little gods now who can do or say whatever you want, with all impunity throughout time and eternity! So this is what it means to be a "Christian", right?

No wonder the moslems hold us in such high esteem....

JimO

Hey True...........

I rest my case.

__________________
Jesus is the Way, the TRUTH, and The Life - the 9/11 truth WILL come out, He will not let the LIE stand! The word is getting out by leaps and bounds - let's stand together and be ready - because "the glass is about to overflow"!! ;)
-Kathy

If one receives 'Salvation' and THEN somehow ends up in Hell, how can it be said that they were ever saved in the first place? Read Romans 5 where paul explicity states that we have been 'Saved from the Wrath to Come'

In what sense did he make such a statement? So, again I ask, if we are saved from the wrath that is to come, as Paul states in Romans 5, and then we end up in hell, in what sense were we ever saved to begin with?

Salvation is not probation, nor is it a kinder, gentler law of Moses. It is what is means; 'Salvation' as words do indeed have meaning.

cheers-
phil

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"In disquisitions of every kind there are certain primary truths, or first principles, upon which all subsequent reasoning must depend." --Alexander Hamilton

Phil Jayhan wrote:
Interesting that you should ask.

For approximately 1500 years of Christian history (hhich is the same as the history of the Catholic Church prior to the Revolt of Martin Luther) at no time did any Christian leaders of the Church (Catholic priests under the Pope's and Bishop's teaching and authority) impute that the meaning of the word "Salvation" that Paul uses was the same thing as the process that leads one from the state of condemnation to the state of having salvation. This process was known at the time and is known now within the very same Christian Catholic Church as the steps leading up to and including the Sacrament of Reconciliation or Confession.

Your TV evangelist inspired dogma however substitutes a different process for the steps leading up to and including the Sacrament of Reconciliation, with another process, and another supposed "Sacrament" (In reality, a pseudo - sacrament) which was unknown to Christianity for 1500 years prior to Martin Luther! This process does not necessarily involve going to the person you wronged first, and seeing if they will forgive you. No, you just merely say the words, or maybe even just think them "I Accept the lawd Jesus Christ into My heart, Here you are Lawd - Thank you for dying on the Cross and forgiving all my sins, amen" or something to that effect .
And then Walla instantly you are "saved"!

????

Hogwash!! This teaching about the process of how one supposedly obtains salvation DID NOT EXIST in all of Chritendom prior to Martin Luther. I challenge you to find in any of the writings of the early Christian Saints, where such a salvation process is supposedly acceptable with them where you can just skip confession alltogether.

Do you think that if you walk off the edge of a cliff, and someone else catches you by your shirttails (saving your life) that if you do this again the fact that you were saved previously means that no matter how many times you jump off the cliff you are "always saved" and that you won't fall to the bottom? Do you sincerely beleive this is what Paul was implying?

Let me ask you this, Phil - Do you think it is "safe" for you to say that Paul was NOT assuming he was writing to Christians who by the Grace of God had come to obtain salvation by the time honored, appropriate and acceptable means, which includes confessing their sins to one another (which as we know he directly commanded in his writings elsewhere)?

In the same sense as anyone who barely escapes with their lives from a harrowing or disastrous circumstance or occurrence. This does not mean that the circumstance or occurrence cannot be repeated, with less fortuitous results.

Salvation does not mean once saved always saved. There are even some protestants who are waking up to this fact. Unfortunatly, their supposed cure for it yet another process involving an "Altar Call", and yet another "acceptance of Jesus Christ" or Re-acceptance as the case may be, by the same process of mouthing the words "I accept you Jesus" etc.. This was NOT how the early Church did things at all. We were commnded by Christ to at least attempt to recocile with the one you wronged first, then go back to the Congregation. If your Brother does not forgive you, or is perhaps otherwise unavailable (such as dead because you killed him or something) then and only then you might obtain forgivness from God by means of the Sacrament of Confession alone.

Until and unless you can prove otherwise, you should stand corrected. If you are too proud to stand corrected, then I advise you to sit down and be quiet and do not add to your transgression of slandering the Church, for which you will be held accountable until you do as I requested and remove your post that started this thread..

JimO

Sin is the seen or unseen manifestation of a person's free will in engaging in a behavior which is contrary to the Will of God. In essense, sin is human disobedience to God. God gives all human beings a free will. Adam & Eve had a free will - and they disobeyed God. Their initial disobedience of God is what is termed the "Original Sin".

At no time in human history has God destroyed the spiritual faculty of individual free will from any human being. God did not destroy Free Will in His Only Begotten Son nor did He destroy Free Will in the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of God Incarnate, Jesus Christ.

Obedience to God's Will is human cooperation with God in seeing to it that His Will is done down here on earth as it always is being done in Heaven. Heaven is precisely Heaven on account of all the saints and angels in Heaven cooperating with God is seeing to it that His Divine Will is accomplished and carried out because the End Result of doing God's Will is Pure Ultimate Good for everyone is His Kingdom.

Whether one is a Christian or not, the human spiritual faculty of free will God has bestowed/entrusted us with as individuals has not been destroyed or nullified by God in any way.

We use our free wills in accordance with our thoughts and our desires. The Divine Grace that God grants to us to bring us around to changing our live's actions and behaviors occurs initially and the Grace of Repentence.
Repentence is a word that literally means "to think again". As we think about what we've done, what we do and what we intend to do with our free wills, if we respond to God's Grace, we make a free willed decision to change our lives, our behaviors and the way in which we live our lives on a daily basis.

In "repenting" of what is sinful in our lives (that is to say, those things which are contrary to God's Will for us as human beings), we can make an active choice with our free will. We can make a act of our free will in doing what is necessary to bring ourselves back under Obedience to God's Will.

Now if it is God's Will that we confess our sins to those whom He has granted the power and authority to forgive sins in His Name, if we are truly sorry for our sins and seek to bring ourselves under the Obedience of God - and Obedience to God entails nothing short that returning to the Guidance of God - and God's Guidance in/with our lives is the result of the Divine Grace of His Holy Spirit working within our very selves, in order to reestablish the lost/broken/severed psychic-spiritual union and connection with God Himself, we have to make ourselves available to God so that He can reestablish that spiritual union with our inner personal self.

Now God is pure Spirit and He happens to Live in Eternity. We, on the other hand, are finite incarnate spirits living in His time, space, matter and energy. Were do we "reconnect" with God in this time, space, matter and energy world of His creating?

The time/space/matter/energy point of reconnecting with God via His Church here on earth is via the physical/outward signs called "The Sacraments". There is this actual physical place in actual physical time we can bring ourselves to in order to make direct contact with God via the Provisions of His New Covenant if we wish to reconcile ourselved with God. One visits one of God's Priests to whom God has granted the power to forgive sins in His Name. When one confesses his or her sins to a Priest, it is God Who forgives us our sins - and not the Priest himself.

God wants for us to have our sins forgiven. But does this imply that since He wants to forgive us our sins, that He desires for us to keep on sinning? What would be the point of God forgiving our sins to begin with if it was simply a-okay to go on sinning? Isn't that absurd? Why forgive a human action or activity if its okay to just keep on doing it?

St. Paul makes is abundantly clear that God has made Divine Provision for the forgiveness of our sins - and that it is God's Will that we cease from sinning after having received His Forgiveness! Per the Apostles Own Teaching as contained in the Catholic Church's Canon of Sacred Christian Church, in St. Paul's Epistle to the members of the Roman (Catholic) Church:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...3;&version=50;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4;&version=50;

Now Christ Jesus revealed to us all that God is our Father in Heaven. God the Father has "conceived" each and every last one of us. One can speak of it in this way: God is the Author of Life and His Divine Virility and Potency has "conceived" each and every last on of us out of Pure Act of Divine Love.

Now what Father Who forgives His teenage son for wrecking the Family's Car because of his booze binge drinking party he attended with a bunch of his hooligan friends one evening over the weekend is going to say to His son 'I forgive you for your irresponsible drinking and your driving the Family Car while slobering drunk....Now here are the keys to the new Family Car...here is a case of beer, another case of vodka. Round up your hooligan buddies and go do it all over again, My son!'

Repentence and Forgiveness are meant to bring about a Redemption - or a Re-Deeming - a Re-Initializing - a Re-Starting - a RE-BOOTING of our lives for all of you computer wizards - of how one lives one's life. And this Re-Deeming, this Re-Initializing, this RE-BOOTING of our lives within this time, space, matter, energy seen creation of God's doing which relentlessly operates under His "Cause & Effect" principle brings us to our Destination which is Eternal Salvation.

We either ask for, seek, obtain and cooperate with God's Grace or we do not. We go through the living out of our lifetimes in time/space/matter and energy cooperating with the Grace (Spiritual Help) of God or not

Human free will remains a constant. God's creation principle of "Cause and Effect" remains a constant. The human variable in this Divine Equation is whether or not human beings will use their free wills to OBEY God's explicit Instructions or not - whether human beings will use their free wills to freey COOPERATE with God's Guidance or not.

Hopefully, this time-consuming explanation will be sufficient enough to help everyone who reads this posting of mine to form a mental imagine, an interior picture so to speak, of the Grand Drama which is Human History itself - do human beings OBEY God and rely on His Divine Omniscient Guidance with faith in His All-Good and All-Loving Divine Nature as God, or not.

Do we, as a human race, "trust God" or not. Do we "trust God" that He has established His Church here on earth, or not. And do we "trust God' that He Himself will be Ever Faithful to the the Divine Provisions He Himself has established with all of mankind in His New Covenant or not.

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."

"Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven (by Me - God)" - Jn 20:23

Either 'the bible' is accurate and true in recording these words of God Inarnate Himself, or they are not. If not, then why even bother reading the bible or quoting St. Paul or parroting the teachings of any 'Sola-Fide' and 'Sola Scriptura' TV evangelist who has "permanently borrowed" <g> his bible from the Catholic Church via the Protestant Revolt of the 1500's?

- Lazarus

"Take, eat all of you. This is My Body which is given for you."

In a phunny way, the entire Protestant Reformation along with its resulting shipwrecking of Christianity and the re-paganizing of Western Culture might very well be traced back to a single, solitary Augustian Monk's mental and personality problem.

Luther suffered from what the Catholic Church's moral theologians call "Scruples".

What is this thing called "Scruples"? Its a kind of mental problem which affects a person's behaviors, actions and the higher reasoning functions of the human mind.

"Scruples" is the personal mental condition of having FALSE GUILT and the resulting effects of the personal feelings of constant and relentless guilt gnawing at the person 24/7/365.

For everyone's information, Luther was an Augustinian Monk in the Catholic Church. Augustinian Monks frequent the Church's Sacraments - particularly the Eucharist and Confession. These guys simply spend lots and lots of time praying for the whole lot us ungrateful, selfish, self-seeking nin-com-poops spending our entire lives chasing after increasing the number of digits in our Federal Reserve bank accounts and generally going through life causing as much pain, problems and obstacles for other people.

Luther's confessor - that is the Priest who would hear Luther's own personal confessions - complained that Luther suffered from "Scruples".
If you are of sound mind and you understand the Divine Provisions Christ Jesus has made for the human race via the New Covenant and His Church's Sacraments, and you go to Confession and sincerely confess your sins to a Priest who has been given the Divine Authority of Christ Jesus to forgive us ungrateful, selfish, self-seeking nin-com-poops chasing after fiat monies and causing everyone else on planet earth troubles - when you hear the Priest announce the words "I Absolve You Of Your Sins" while he is imparting onto you the Priestly Blessing of Christ Jesus Himself - you ARE supposed to both understand and ACCEPT that your sins have been forgiven! What good is it to ask God to forgive your sins, He does - and you don't accept His forgiveness??? Kinda silly, no?

A person with "Scruples" never actually feels the relief from or release from personal guilt. Such people feel guilty whether they have done anything wrong or not. They just feel strangely "guilty" 24/7 about anything and everything.

No matter how many times his Catholic Priest confessor told Luther "Lookie here, my good man - you confessed that sin to me about 5 minutes ago - I told you that Christ Jesus forgives you - and you haven't even left the Church - and here you are again telling me that you did that sin again!"

Whatever sort of nuero-chemical medication Luther needed in order to dispense with his FALSE GUILT TRIPS wasn't available 500 years ago. Hence, Luther sought personal mental solice in drinking lots and lots of beer - that good stout German beer that Germany is famous for.

With the increase of alcohol in his bloodstream which acts as a central nervous system DEPRESSANT, Luther found himself feeling more and more of this FALSE GUILT that was his personal mental disease.

Luther's falacious theological assertion that we are saved by faith alone (Sola Fide) was this poor, ill, mentally challenged Augustinian Monks way of saving himself from going insane with this FALSE GUILT!!!

His anger at the Catholic Church, her Divine Sacraments, her Theology, was on account of his misdirected assumption that his mental condition which caused him to suffer from "Scruples" or constantly felt FALSE GUILT
was on account of the failure of the Catholic Church, her Divine Sacraments and her Theology. The failure of the Catholic Church to remedy him of his biochemically induced FALSE GUILT resulting in his asserting the Catholic Church and her Apostolic Faith were FALSE and in error!

If you are suffering from a FALSE GUILT year after year after year, there comes a point of time in your life that one says "To Hell With This Damned Constant State Of Personal Guilt!" & "If You Are Going To Feel Guilty 24/7 And Can't Do Anything About It - You Might As Well As Sin To Your Hearts Content!"

Hence, Luther's famous statement "If you must sin, sin boldly! Yet by faith believe that Christ has paid for your sinning."

From this simple case of an Augustinian Monks personal biochemical disorder within his physical brain causing him to feel a FALSE GUILT 24/7 arises the very un-Apostolic teaching of "You Are Saved By Faith Alone!" or "Sola Fide!"

We aren't spiritually saved by faith alone! We Catholic Chrisitans assert we are saved by THE GRACE OF GOD! God Himself has to do the Supernatural Stuff within us "to save" us - and that takes God's Grace. Our human faith ISN'T at all Divine, nor are own human thoughts Divine Grace! God Himself is the True Christian Grace!

Now then, can everyone who has a bible, can we CANCEL this stupid 500 year Protestant Revolt of yours on account of one man's case of personal SCRUPLES???

...and here it comes...the other avalanche of utter non-sense - the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon - the Bishop of Rome is the Antichrist to which I ask - "Why isn't the Bishop of Jerusalem the Antichrist? Why isn't the Bishop of Antioch the Antichrist? Why isn't the Patriarch of Moscow the Antichrist? Why isn't the Archbishop of Canterbury the Antichrist?"

If Luther's personal problem with the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Faith of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour, was on account of SCRUPLES, then what sort of mental problems are being suffered by those who call the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon and the Bishop of Rome the Antichrist?

Was there some strange FUNGUS growing - like strange MUSHROOMS - all across Europe that people were eating (and are still eating here in the USA nowadays) causing every manner of mental imbalance and personal hallucinations which was the real, unspoken underlying MENTAL HYGENE problems with those out for a quick buck and chunk of land that belonged to the Catholic Church back then?

- Lazarus

I could be wrong here but it sounds like you agree with the actions performed against pagans and their attempted destruction of?

If so you ought to educate yourself on paganism more because that would be agreeing to genocide and mass murder of what were essentially nothing more than wholistic communities struggling with the same level of ignorance as everyone else back in those days.

Observer!

Remember this is Tonearm were dealing with here, (actually, I think Jimo is reallyTokarm too!

He's some kind of Lieutenant or something in the "church militant"

We can't expect any less from them than total destruction of all the enemies of "the Church" by these guys.

This is what the Catholic Church has always been about.

Tokarm should go to his cave hermitage, read the New Testament over and over, and stay until the truth hits him like a thunderbolt from God.

Really Tokarm, I guarantee you will know the truth.

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A LIE BELIEVED BY EVERYBODY IS NOT THE TRUTH