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Old 8 Feb 2010 , 23:42 PM   #1
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Old 9 Feb 2010 , 00:26 AM   #2
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Hey Kel - ya know, watching thins, it made me finally answer a question I have often wondered about. And I wanted to ask if you could rename htis thread to: "Does 'Modern' Israel Have Right To Pallestine?"

Because that video is a great opening...and this will be a great continuation...

http://www.rbc.org/questionsDetail.aspx?id=45990

Does modern Israel have the same right to use force to claim the land as the Israelites did under Joshua?

Here we must be careful to realize that any nation has a right to defend its legal borders and citizenry. At the same time, we must be careful not to confuse the modern secular state of Israel with the armies and tribes of Joshua. While God's hand may be seen in the return of large numbers of Jewish people to the land, we must always be careful to distinguish between what God may or may not be doing with the Jewish people, and what the Jewish people are doing without God. It is not at all clear that a spiritually unrepentant state of modern Israel can claim land because of a title deed originally given to the descendants of Abraham, and then revoked until the promised last days of physical and spiritual restoration of Israel.
This distinction is important because when the children of Israel first came into the land, God commanded them to kill or drive out its inhabitants. At that time the God of Israel authorized the complete destruction of Canaanites who were living as a morally bankrupt and an idolatrous people. Their debased religion demanded human sacrifice; their social structure was brutal and dehumanizing; and their total lack of sexual decency lead to continual abuse of women, children, and animals, and, subsequently, widespread disease and death.
When Israel first entered the land under the direct command of God, it was with leaders who were specially selected by God on account of their obedience ( Joshua 1:7-9 ). The Israelites themselves had passed through 40 years of purification in the desert and were not permitted to enter Canaan until a disobedient generation had died. Unlike modern Israel, the ancient Israelites swore faithfulness to God and knew of the consequences of disobedience ( Deuteronomy 30:10,18; Joshua 24 ). Also unlike modern Israel, God miraculously prepared the way for them and supernaturally assisted them, so that they wouldn't become arrogant and think that they had come into possession of the land by their own strength and cleverness ( Joshua 24:1-20 ).
The ideology of modern Zionism 1 is not based on religious faith. It is primarily agnostic and was founded on the ideology of nineteenth-century romantic nationalism, which is based on notions of "racial purity" and "historic rights to the land."
As a result of this race-based ideology, the ultimate goals of Zionism didn't favor peaceful coexistence with the Palestinians, but required plans for their expulsion. 2 Over the decades, "the sins of the fathers"( Daniel 9:16 ) have clearly been found on both sides of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Furthermore, the nation of Israel, like the Palestinian people, is not in a state of spiritual repentance as required by the standard of the New Covenant. Therefore we must wonder whether modern Israel has been guilty of many of the same corporate sins that led to her earlier dispersion.
Israel as a people and nation still have an important role in God's plans. (See the article, Does the Bible really say that the Jews are "God's chosen people"? ) However, John the Baptist, whom Jesus called the "greatest of the prophets," warned Jewish leaders not to feel superior merely because of their racial heritage:

Do not think you can say to yourselves, "We have Abraham as our father." I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come One who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will clear His threshing floor, gathering His wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire (Matthew 3:9-12 NIV).
God dispersed the ancient Jewish nation because of her moral and spiritual failures, and made His concern with justice and righteousness clear:

Let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream! (Amos 5:24 NIV).
He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God (Micah 6:8 NIV).
Jesus declared that Israel would never experience God's complete blessing until her heart had turned to repentance and obedience:
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see Me again until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" (Luke 13:34-35 NIV).
God's covenant with Abraham implies that Israel will not be restored to her place of blessing in the land at the price of injustice and violence to others. ("You will be a blessing . . . and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.") If Israel depends on violence and injustice to take control of the land, she will find herself facing the same consequences her ancestors faced.

1 . Zionism is the name of the international Jewish movement that began in the nineteenth century with the hopes of establishing a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
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2 . Although at least some Zionist leaders realized that it would be politically dangerous to make their plans for ethnic cleansing publicly known, some of their intentions have been documented, and history shows their plans for the expulsion of Palestinians have been consistently implemented. (See, for example, “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem” by Israeli historian Benny Morris, Cambridge University Press; “The Iron Wall, Israel and the Arab World” by Jewish historian Avi Shlaim, W.W. Norton)
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3. Before the 1967 War, a majority of American Jews were opposed to Zionism. Orthodox Jews tended to view it as a futile attempt to establish Israel in the absence of Messiah, and liberal Jews saw it as a violation of their commitment to freedom of religion in the context of secular representative democracy.
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Old 9 Feb 2010 , 03:22 AM   #3
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Desperately Needed:Ethics Of Christ In Mideast!







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DESPERATELY NEEDED: ETHICS OF CHRIST IN MIDEAST

By Rev. Ted Pike
8 Feb 10


Rahm Emmanuel recently told Israel that Pres. Obama is sick of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Obama is disappointed with the evident lack of sincerity on both sides. “This is as intractable a problem as you get…I think that we overestimated our ability to persuade them…[to make peace] when their politics ran contrary to that.”
Although Israel has always postured as amenable to a two-state solution, Israel’s leaders covertly agreed that total expulsion of Arabs from Palestine is the only practical solution to the conflict. Israel’s first premier and architect of the state, David Ben-Gurion, and other Zionist leaders, have publicly confirmed the necessity of exclusion.
Ben-Gurion: “We will expel the Arabs and take their place.” “In each attack, a decisive blow should be struck, resulting in the destruction of homes and the expulsion of the population.” “We shall enter the vacated villages and settle in them.” “We must do everything in our power to ensure that they never return.”
In 1940, Joseph Weitz, director of the Jewish National Fund, the central Zionist organization acquiring land in Palestine, wrote, “It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country…There is no room for compromise on this point.” [1]
The second reason this problem seems impossible to solve is the "hit back" mentality of the two primary groups in Israel. Hamas hits back with suicide bombs and homemade rockets which do nothing but give Israel justification to retaliate. As the Goldstone Report documents, Palestinians are not without blame in the present conflict. Yet strife is just as much perpetuated by Israel’s Talmudic “hit back” mentality – a reflex thousands of years old and manifested by the government of Israel for at least the past 60 years.
Israel and the Palestinians desperately need enlightened ethical intervention that will stop the endless back-and-forth of violence.
How the Mid-East Conflict Began
In 1917, the Arab world was at peace with the West. They despised the ruling Ottoman Turks and admired America, England and France. They eagerly cooperated to defeat the Axis powers, responding to Britain's promise of freedom from the Turks in their own independent Arab state. The Balfour Declaration, which planned a limited homeland for Jews in Palestine, promised such freedom: "… nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine."
What actually happened was that Israel did about everything imaginable to deprive indigenous Palestinians of both land and rights. In the spring of 1948, Jewish Irgun terrorists slaughtered over 100 innocent Palestinians villagers in the sleeping town of Deir Yassin east of Jerusalem. The Zionists went on rampage, murderously terrorizing 800,000 Palestinians, including tradesmen, farmers, and professionals, driving them from hundreds of towns and villages throughout Palestine. Any Arab who returned, attempting to take belongings with him was shot. [2] The Palestinians were forced to settle in shantytown concentration camps and settlements, where hordes of their grandchildren remain today. Israel made the Palestinians its worst enemies. How can these chronically oppressed people view Israel as anything but an enemy? Over 90 years, Israel has proven its real objective is to drive the Arabs from Palestine.
Mandate for Violence
Israel derives its mandate for conquest from a twisted interpretation of God's covenant with Abraham. Modern Israel says unrighteous Jews are entitled to the Holy Land, at any cost. This is false. Scripture repeatedly states that only a nation of holy and obedient Jews can own and occupy God's Holy Land. [3] This happened under Joshua and Nehemiah, and the Bible says it will occur again when Jews repent at Christ's second coming. Today's premature national return is a counterfeit and not endorsed by God. It lays the foundation for world dominion by the anti-Christ, not Christ.
Strife in the Mideast stems from Israel's loyalty to the Babylonian Talmud, the pseudo-Bible created by the ancient Pharisees and now the official ethical/religious authority for the state of Israel. The Talmud encourages Jews to remind every generation of the atrocities committed against them by Gentiles and Christians. The best way to keep bad things from happening to Jews again is to never forget. An esteemed Talmudic sage advised that if you know your enemy wants to kill you, kill him first! (Jesus said the opposite: The best way to keep your enemy from harming you is to be kind, preferably long before he becomes homicidal.) Israel believes she must continually crush her critics, demonizing them as "anti-Semitic" or they will establish bases of power with one objective: to destroy Israel. Of course, this rationale can be extended as needed beyond Palestine to Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, etc. Conceivably, any nation which strongly criticizes Israel might be seen as a threat worthy of attack.
Tragically, Israel-first evangelical Christians imbibe raw Israeli propaganda from the Jewish-dominated American big media as well as evangelical sources such as WorldNetDaily and Trinity Broadcasting Network. (See Jews Confirm Big Media Is Jewish). They agree with Israel's values. Denying the genius of Jesus’ ethics, they say Israel is absolutely correct in holding to its Talmudic responses.
Yet if evangelicals truly are friends of Israel, they must inform Israel that her reflexes are woefully misguided. Christians need to tell Israel that her "hit back" mentality, not the Palestinians, is her greatest national problem. It's time for Israel to do what is right, not what is misguidedly considered necessary.
Here’s my proposal: A special Knesset commission should begin an in-depth study of how turning the other cheek (feeding your enemy, covering him with the proverbial “cloak” of mercy and kindness, going the “extra mile” of deference and accommodation) might at last procure peace. Israel must admit her crimes of violent expropriation of 800,000 Palestinians in 1948 and exile of their descendants to concentration camps. Although it may not be possible to restore Arabs to their property, Israel should do everything in its power to make amends. This would include massive financial, economic, humanitarian, legal, and educational encouragement to Palestinians in the occupied territories. The intent would be to help create a prosperous state for Palestinians in place of the homeland Israel stole.
Although Palestinians would be intensely suspicious at first, if Israel were to actively apply the Golden Rule to all relations with the Arab world, there is little doubt it would enormously ease, if not solve, Mideast tensions. It would also diminish the by-product of Israel's oppression: international Arab terrorism. If this doesn’t happen and the conflict persists under failed principles, it will only continue to hemorrhage respect for Israel from the nations. It will heighten the volatility of the entire Mideast - especially as Zionist groups now clamor for US involvement in attack on Iran - yet another futile attempt to make the Mideast safe for Israel.
Could the Golden Rule Prevail?
But will Christians recommend the ethics of Jesus to Israel? Might Israel respond favorably?
Of course not.
Israel-first evangelicals like Sarah Palin and Dennis Huckabee, and Jewish Zionists like Netanyahu, want one thing: Arabs out of Palestine and control by Israel of all lands promised the nation under Joshua—from Egypt to Lebanon and from Sinai to Syria. To accomplish this they advocate filling the Occupied Territories with even more illegal Jewish homes, further confiscating Arabs' lands and driving them out.
The bizarre and sobering reality is that Christian and Jewish fundamentalists view two-state harmony between Arabs and Jews as a desecration of God's Holy Land! This is why the Mideast dilemma remains "as intractable a problem as you get."
The last thing Christian and Jewish Zionists want is for Jews and Arabs in Palestine to live happily ever after.

Footnotes
  1. These statements by Zionist leaders, reflected in many terrorist acts against the Palestinians in 1948, are found in the Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem, p. 261-66. Edited by Palestinian barrister and diplomat Dr. Issa Nakhleh, it is available in most university libraries.
  2. The above source quotes Ze’ev Schiff, the leading military authority of Ha’aretz, saying Deir Yassin “caused masses of Arabs to flee in fear of further atrocities…As the story of the massacre spread among the Arabs, it gathered gruesome detail…” (p. 255) The encyclopedia says, “Massacre, murder, rape, robbery, death and destruction propelled the Palestinians from their homeland. Even Zionist soldiers themselves admit to these unspeakable crimes, for example, in the village of Duwayma in the Hebron district: ‘They killed some 80 to 100 Arabs, women and children. The children were killed by smashing their skulls with clubs…In the village there remained Arab men and women who were put in the houses without food. Then the sappers came to blow up the houses.’ One of the survivors of the massacre, Hassan Mahmud Hodeib, said that on 28 and 29 October 1948, 20 tanks from Moshe Dayan’s 89 th battalion surrounded the village and committed mass murder against its civilian inhabitants. Among the victims were 75 elderly people who took refuge in a mosque. Members of 35 families were found hiding in a cave and were machine-gunned. The Israeli newspaper Hadashot confirmed the massacre when its correspondent Yoalla Haarshefi uncovered skeletons in a cistern near the village 36 years later in 1984.”
  3. God's conditional terms for Jewish occupation of Palestine include: Lev. 18:28, 26:27-46; Num. 14:23; Deut. 4:26-27, 6:18, 7:12, 8:21, 25, 37, 41, 63, 64, 28:56-64, 29:28, 31:3, 18; Ezek. 13:9; Jer. 7:15, 29:13.


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