Investigators have identified the signal from one of the black boxes in the WTC

**caveman** · 22 Aug 2012 , 16:58 PM

Investigators have identified the signal from one of the black boxes in the WTC

The official story is that none of the black boxes of the flights that hit WTC 1 and WTC 2 were recovered.

And there is of course the story of DeMasi and Belone that 3 of the 4 boxes WERE recovered:

Quote:

“At one point, I was asked to take Federal Agents around the site to search for the black boxes from the planes,” he wrote. “We were getting ready to go out. My ATV was parked at the top of the stairs at the Brooks Brothers entrance area. We loaded up about a million dollars worth of equipment and strapped it into the ATV...”

“There were a total of four black boxes. We found three.”

Efforts over several days to locate and interview DeMasi, who is now said to be with the FDNY’s Marine Unit, were not successful.

But his account was verified by another member of the so-called TRAC Team, recovery site volunteer Bellone. He recalled FBI agents arriving for the search one day in early October, setting up their equipment near Brooks Brothers. He said he didn’t go out with them on the ATV but observed their search.

At one point, Bellone said he observed the team with a box that appeared charred but was redish-orange with two white stripes. Pictures of the flight recorders on the NTSB and other Web sites show devices that are orange, with two white stripes.

“There was the one that I saw, and two others were recovered in different locations - but I wasn’t there for the other two,” Bellone said. He said the FBI agents left with the boxes.

(source http://www.pnionline.com/dnblog/extr...es/001139.html etc)

Whatever either DeMasi or Belone may or may not have done wright or wrong in the aftermath of 9/11 (there is some discussion whether there was a matter of personal benefit or misuse of uniforms etc), today I stumbled upon one of the most import discoveries in my personal investigation of 9/11.

When sifting through thousands of FOIA requested i downloaded up to now, I stumbled upon this letter of the New York Mayers Emergercy Office to governor Pataki.

In the letter of September 18th (2001) director Edward F. Jacoby jr wrote to governor Pataki:

"Investigators have identified the signal from one of the black boxes in the WTC debris"

Impossible and hoax you would say.
No.. here's it in plain text. (red box added by me)

Old picture url; http://cavynl.home.xs4all.nl/911/NYS...r%20Paraki.png

You can find the original set from FOIA's this one came from at: LINK

This information has not surfaced in years. How can investigators have been able to identify the signal of the black boxes, and still there is the official statement that none of the boxes were recovered?

Of course.. having the beacon of the black box operational does not say anything of the contents or usability of the tapes or info of the blackboxes themselves, but here is - in my humble opinion - another smoking gun the we were not told the whole truth about these black boxes not being found at all!

Someone has some explaining to do!

One thought in addition.

The letter to governor Pataki is dated September 18, 2001. It is a very strange 'coindicence' that the FOIA request for releasing the situation reports for the NYC Office of Emergency Management (OEM), started with releasing from upon "Situation Report #12" (which is made as of September 17, 15.00 hours local time). Situation Reports 1 till 11 have NOT been released.

Is it clear that the director Jacoby is basing his letter on Reports 1 till 11, and it raises the red flag on the question why these 11 reports are still not being released, or did we finally catch a glimpse on the reason why nobody is allowed to see these 11 reports?

It is clear there WERE black boxes and at least one of the beacons was active

Caveman

clive · 22 Aug 2012 , 19:50 PM

Great find caveman.

**andy tyme** · 22 Aug 2012 , 22:10 PM

Keep in mind the strong possibility that at least one (and probably several) of the various, overlapping "hijacking and plane-crashing war games" being conducted on the morning of 9/11 involved the hunt for, and discovery of, black boxes. This very interesting material you have uncovered may actually be based on quotes or paraphrases from the covert 9/11 script. In other words, there could still have been no real planes... or black boxes for that matter -- but the game players had been initially instructed to pretend there were. And so their "going through the motions" became a part of the historical document trail that the post-facto "investigators" eventually decided it was best to ignore.

do2read · 22 Aug 2012 , 22:24 PM

Yes, I will say that the first item in the document is a hoax, there were no black boxes. Certainly none that arrived by airplane.

Another one I like is that 46,760 tons of debris were removed in a 12 hour period.

A Tri-axle dump truck is usually set up to carry a 20-22 ton load. The size of the bed is set up such that a load of dense graded stone (with nearly no air) will produce such a weight. A load of debris has many materials lighter than rock, and also has a lot of air space between items, reducing weight. A more realistic weight for a debris truck would be 15 tons max.

Even at 22 tons, it would take 2,125 loads in a 12 hour period, or an average of 177 loads per hour. Totally impossible. 3 loads leaving each minute, and that is giving all benefits of doubt.

If they were talking about steel beams, we have seen the way they were carefully loaded. We could study the photos and look up the brand of truck and trailer to determine the load but it would be easier to generously estimate.Trailers are designed for the normal maximum legal weight limits. Even if the legal limits were suspended, the trailers would carry 35 tons.

Even at 35 tons, it would take 1,336 loads in 12 hours, 111 loads per hour. Each load had to be rigged by men at the pile,picked up by a crane (we have seen these beams handled by cranes) carefully lowered onto the trucks. Some were also handled by teams of two large excavators with Pinchers, also not a rapid process. This process would have to be completed every 30 seconds to produce these results, and again, with the number of cranes and excavators on site, this is ridiculous.

Since both alternatives are unachievable, there can be no combination of the two that could move this kind of debris in that time frame.

Don't forget that all of this material had to be off loaded at Pier 25 too, in the same time frame. There are certainly not enough cranes on the Pier to once again move this material in such a preposterous time span.

Looks like once again, in the early days after 9/11, they are caught protesting too much.

Stephanopoulis and Giuliani were already explaining the small debris pile on the morning of 9/12, when nobody was asking. Kinda like blurting out "I didn't do it" before any one asks.

Here they are at it again. Throwing out absurd figures to over sell the idea that there was a huge pile, which had disappeared rapidly. We have proven over and over that neither was the case. There is no indication of trucks leaving the site at that pace, there would have been a steady stream.

They knew the debris pile was their Achilles Heel. They had to sell it at every opportunity.

That document they provided is nearly a farce. They may as well claim Godzilla ate the debris overnight. Thanks for posting it caveman.

Tell a very Big Lie, repeat it often. 46,760 tons. Right.

l

Dr FUBAR · 23 Aug 2012 , 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by do2read

Yes, I will say that the first item in the document is a hoax, there were no black boxes. Certainly none that arrived by airplane.

1.) Another one I like is that 46,760 tons of debris were removed in a 12 hour period.

2.) A Tri-axle dump truck is usually set up to carry a 20-22 ton load. The size of the bed is set up such that a load of dense graded stone (with nearly no air) will produce such a weight. A load of debris has many materials lighter than rock, and also has a lot of air space between items, reducing weight. A more realistic weight for a debris truck would be 15 tons max.

3.) Even at 22 tons, it would take 2,125 loads in a 12 hour period, or an average of 177 loads per hour. Totally impossible. 3 loads leaving each minute, and that is giving all benefits of doubt.

4.) If they were talking about steel beams, we have seen the way they were carefully loaded. We could study the photos and look up the brand of truck and trailer to determine the load but it would be easier to generously estimate.Trailers are designed for the normal maximum legal weight limits. Even if the legal limits were suspended, the trailers would carry 35 tons.
Even at 35 tons, it would take 1,336 loads in 12 hours, 111 loads per hour.
Each load had to be rigged by men at the pile, picked up by a crane (we have seen these beams handled by cranes) carefully lowered onto the trucks. Some were also handled by teams of two large excavators with Pinchers, also not a rapid process. This process would have to be completed every 30 seconds to produce these results, and again, with the number of cranes and excavators on site, this is ridiculous.

5.) Since both alternatives are unachievable, there can be no combination of the two that could move this kind of debris in that time frame.

6.) Don't forget that all of this material had to be off loaded at Pier 25 too, in the same time frame. There are certainly not enough cranes on the Pier to once again move this material in such a preposterous time span.

Looks like once again, in the early days after 9/11, they are caught protesting too much.

7.) Stephanopoulis and Giuliani were already explaining the small debris pile on the morning of 9/12, when nobody was asking. Kinda like blurting out "I didn't do it" before any one asks.

8.) Here they are at it again. Throwing out absurd figures to over sell the idea that there was a huge pile, which had disappeared rapidly. We have proven over and over that neither was the case. There is no indication of trucks leaving the site at that pace, there would have been a steady stream.

9.) They knew the debris pile was their Achilles Heel. They had to sell it at every opportunity.
That document they provided is nearly a farce. They may as well claim Godzilla ate the debris overnight. Thanks for posting it caveman.
Tell a very Big Lie, repeat it often. 46,760 tons. Right.

l

Larry. Is there a possible chance that you didn't read the article well enough?
Maybe you saw 9/11 instead of 9/17!

1.) This document says 6 days instead of 12 hours for the 46,760 tons.

2.) Agreed with 15 ton per truck. [could be 16,4. See further on.]

3.) 46,760:6 days/144 hours, that would be 7793 ton per day, 325 ton per hour:15 ton a truck >> 22 trucks per hour. [If the trucks loaded 16,4 ton, that will reduce the loads to 20 per hour.]

4.) See 3.

5.) With a 35 ton per truck scenario, well let's be generous and make it 29,5 ton per truck. That would cut the numbers right in half, wich is 11 trucks per hour. 11 trucks X 29,5 = 324,5 ton X 144 hours = 46,728 ton.

6.)

Quote:

To accelerate steel removal, Weeks Marine Inc. has created two steel offloading areas that ramped up operations last week to transport debris by barge for recycling. The sites are located at Pier 25 on the Hudson River and at Pier 6 at the tip of lower Manhattan. The city's usual garbage removal facilities, which is handling smaller site debris, could not accommodate steel pieces.
Weeks was still dredging the Pier 25 site even as trucks began delivering steel to the site for offloading by crane to barges that can hold up to 3,000 tons. "That's equivalent to 150 truckloads," says Weeks Senior Vice President George Wittich. Business was slow at first as truck-drivers maneuvered through the site and city streets and had to pass muster with FBI officials checking for evidence. One site source says security was beefed up after some drivers sold steel privately to scrap dealers.
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/debris.htm

AND.

Barges Near Stuyvesant High School To Stop Transportation of Ground Zero Debris Next Month -

"The operation has been winding down in recent weeks. 'There is one truck every 20 minutes - the sooner it's all over, the better for me. [At its peak], there would be 20 trucks lined up, sometimes 40.'
https://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/groundzerocleanup,freshkillssortingopera

I tried to find the original source, wich is the 'DownTownExpress'. But it doesn't go any further in the archives than; September 7, 2011.
http://www.downtownexpress.com/category/9-11-tenth-anniversary/page/2/

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYSM

Barges delivered World Trade Center remains to the facility, where they were then unloaded onto dump trucks and driven up the hill to be processed. In December 2001, up to 17 barges a day, some capable of holding 650 tons, delivered material to Fresh Kills.
http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/wtc/recove...ngprocess.html

Barges that can hold up to 3,000 tons...and now this? 650 tons? WTF is happening here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by APWA

A total of 508 barges of material were loaded by the Department at the 59th Street and Hamilton Avenue MTS's, and another 1,423 barges were loaded by the city's contractor, Weeks Marine, at Pier 6 and Pier 25. The basic unloading operation used stationary cranes that were already in place at the Fresh Kills Landfill to unload the World Trade Center debris onto a concrete apron. Onsite, front-end loaders placed the material into large payhaulers, which then transported the material to the stockpiles at the top of the landfill.
http://www.apwa.net/Resources/Report...at-Ground-Zero

1,931 barges in total.

Let's see what we can find on 7,8 and 9.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire engineering on september 14, 2001.

10,000 Tons of Debris Removed; Rain Slows Progress
New York -- Rescuers efforts through the night and into today have been hampered by rain. Debris has become saturated and is heavier now, and during the night rescue efforts were postponed until a thunderstorm passed through the area. Mayor Giuliani has confirmed that 10,000 tons of debris have been removed to date.
http://www.fireengineering.com/artic...-pentagon.html

10,000 ton in 3 days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABC news on september 16, 2001.

Rescue workers have now cleared away 21,000 tons of debris, using 1,200 truckloads. But when they tunnel into the wreckage, it lets in more air and often has the effect of feeding oxygen to the smoldering fires and hot debris.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92492&page=1

21,000 ton in 5 days.

The first article says;

46,760 tons in 6 days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABC news, on september 20, 2001.

Crews have removed 68,943 tons of debris from the site, but an estimated 1 million to 2 million tons remain, and officials have said it will take at least six months to clear it all.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92468&page=1

68,943 tons in 9 days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABC News, on september 21, 2001.

During the recovery effort, 5,476 trucks have removed 76,459 tons of debris from the site. But an estimated 1 million to 2 million tons remain, and officials have said it will take at least six months to clear it all.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92454&page=1

76,459 ton in 10 days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Time, on september 22, 2001

90,937 Tons of debris removed from the World Trade Center site as of Sept. 22, 2001
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...#ixzz24NYpgMpm

90,937 ton in 11 days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CNN on tuesday september 25, 2001

FEMA said Monday that 101,164 tons of debris have been removed from the disaster site.
About 1.2 million more tons remain.
http://articles.cnn.com/2001-09-25/u...-site?_s=PM:US

101,164 ton in 13 days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yale Law School on september 25, 2001.

The Corps continues to work on the debris operations plan for consideration by New York City and FEMA. By New York City estimates, debris removal to date has topped more than 108,756 tons. Official estimates of total debris is 1.2 million tons. The Corps has completed its final draft for the USACE piece of the debris operations plan for FEMA approval. Part of the debris challenge is in determining appropriate disposition for the material in terms of identifying what can be recycled, placed in landfills or at offshore disposal areas.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/sept11/eng_007.asp

108,756 ton in 14 days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABC News, on september 25, 2001.

To help the recovery effort, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has awarded an emergency contract for dredging work to be done around Pier 6 on the East River to increase the depth there to 17 feet to make it easier for barges to enter and take away debris. So far, 115,755 tons of debris has been removed.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92426&page=1

115,755 tons in 14 days. [ see ^the same date september 25th]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABC, on september 27, 2001.

The equipment is doing more work than men at this point, and the effort is beginning to take a toll on the machines as well as their operators, with only about 10 percent of the 1.2 million tons of debris that once made up the World Trade Center removed.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92411&page=1

120 ton in 16 days. [should be 120,000 ton imao]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CNN, on september 28, 2001.

More than 128,050 tons of debris have been removed from the 16-acre site where the World Trade Center collapsed, he said.

http://articles.cnn.com/2001-09-28/u...uries?_s=PM:US

128,050 ton in 17 days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telegraph Uk on september 29, 2001.

So far, about 130,000 tons of the debris have been removed after the recovery of 306 bodies and many hundreds of body parts. Officials now estimate that more than a million tons of rubble remain, almost twice the original estimate.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rom-ruins.html

130,000 ton in 18 days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CNN, on september 28, 2001.

Workers already have removed around 134,000 tons of debris from around the World Trade Center complex, but more than 1 million more tons of rubble remain.
http://edition.cnn.com/2001/US/09/28/rec.wtc.efforts/index.html

134 ton in 17 days. [ should be 134,000 ton imao

But specially, see the other 28 september? ^ ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 911 memorial, on september 28, 2001.

More than 134 tons of material have been removed; NYC Mayor Rudolph Giuliani estimates that the cleanup will take “anywhere from nine months to a year.”
http://www.911memorial.org/rescue-recovery

134 ton in 17 days. [should be 134,000 imao]

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Washingthon University

By the end of 29 Sept., approximately 145,000 tons of debris was removed from the WTC site inclusive of the steel designated for recycling. As of 21 May 2002, 1,625,550 tons of debris had been removed from the WTC site.
http://www.gwu.edu/~icdrm/publicatio...usacerole.html

145,000 ton in 18 days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NY daily news, on april 16, 2002.

Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey.
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2002-04-16/news/18191779_1_girder-plate-steel

185,101 ton in 215 days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NY Times, on october 13, 2001

Already, working around the clock, 1,300 construction workers and other personnel -- including 160 firefighters and 90 police officers -- have removed an extraordinary volume of debris: 290,000 tons of the estimated 1.2 million at the site.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/13/nyregion/nation-challenged-site-slowed-site-s-fragility-heavy-lifting-has-only-begun.html

290,000 ton in 32 days. And 185,101 ton in 215 days! WTF is going on.

But a 'puzzling' estimated 1,2 million number for a source in NEW YORK??
That is not even close to the 1,8 million they all mention?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Januari 10, 2002.

Recovery crews reach a milestone. 1,000,000 tons of debris have been removed.
http://www.glasssteelandstone.com/Bu...Detail/442.php

1 million ton in 120 days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPA, tuesday, January 22, 2002.

About 12-15 barges arrive daily, ferrying debris from Ground Zero in Lower Manhattan. To process 8,000 tons of rubble a day, authorities have enlisted a company in the Town of Montgomery to help the 24 city, state and federal agencies at the landfill.
[...]
The debris recovery effort hit the *1.1 million-ton mark Friday* - and there's 400,000 million tons of World Trade Center rubble to go until the job is finished in either April or May.
http://www.epa.gov/region2/demolition/casestud.htm

1,1 million ton in 127 days, on *friday januari 18*. 12-15 barges on a daily basis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 911 memorial, may 10, 2002.

Along with 1.4 million tons of debris removed from the site, 19,435 body parts have been recovered from ground zero.
http://www.911memorial.org/rescue-recovery

1,4 million ton in 240 days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Debra K. Rubin, 7 months later.

Seven months later, Ground Zero is no longer the nightmare it once was. The pain of Sept. 11 still lingers for the families, friends and colleagues of the more than 2,800 WTC victims, as well as for those at the Pentagon and on United Flight 93. The landmark towers are gone but the wound they left at the 16-acre WTC site is healing. More than 1.6 million tons of debris has been removed. Cleanup, site stabilization, infrastructure repair and reconstruction preparation are nearly finished, and redevelopment plans are emerging, if slowly.
http://enr.construction.com/people/people/archives/020422a.asp

1,6 million ton in 210 days.

Bit confusing here.

The 911 memorial page says may 10, 2002! Wich is 8 months and they mention 1,4 million ton.

The article that Debra K Rubin wrote, there was 1,6 million removed in just 7 months??

[That would be april.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 911 memorial 9 months later

At the three attack sites, days and weeks - and months as was the case with New York City – were spent extinguishing fires, searching for survivors and, ultimately, searching for remains of the victims. It took nine months to remove approximately 1.8 million tons from the WTC site.
http://www.911memorial.org/rescue-recovery

1.8 million ton in 270 days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 911 memorial, june 25, 2002.

The last truckload of debris is carried out of the World Trade Center site. More than 110,000 truckloads of debris have been removed from ground zero.
http://www.911memorial.org/rescue-recovery

Always more than? Why no correct numbers, like 110,011 trucks?

Quote:

Originally Posted by History.com

By May 2002, when the cleanup officially ended, workers had moved more than 108,000 truckloads–1.8 million tons–of rubble to a Staten Island landfill.
http://www.history.com/topics/ground-zero

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYSM

A total of 108,342 trucks and barges transported material to the Fresh Kills facility on Staten Island, where it was thoroughly sifted to help identify human remains, personal effects and physical evidence from the hijacked planes. Some structural steel went directly to recyclers.
http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/wtc/recovery/groundzero.html

108,000 trucks, 108,342 trucks, 110,000 trucks.

Let's continue...110,000 trucks in 9 months and 14 days [284 days].
That is an averaged 387 ton per day.

110,000 trucks times 15 ton per truck would be close to the estimated 1,8 million ton. But 110,000 trucks times 15 ton per truck is 1,65 million ton? So i am missing 150,000 ton here, unless the trucks loaded 16,4 ton a piece and that times 110,000 trucks covers "just about" the 1,8 million ton.

Quote:

Originally Posted by APWA

The Fresh Kills Landfill received approximately 1.4 million tons of WTC debris of which 200,000 tons of steel were recycled by a recycling vendor (Hugo Neu Schnitzer). The remaining material, approximately 1.2 million tons of WTC debris, was landfilled on the western side of Section 1/9 at the Fresh Kills Landfill in a 40-acre site.
The project had come up to speed quickly, processing from 1,750 tons per day of debris in mid-September to 17,500 tons per day by mid-October. Average throughput over the duration of the project was 4,900 tons of debris processed per day.
http://www.apwa.net/Resources/Report...at-Ground-Zero

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABC News.

During the recovery effort, 5,476 trucks have removed 76,459 tons of debris from the site. But an estimated 1 million to 2 million tons remain, and officials have said it will take at least six months to clear it all.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92454&page=1

Quote:

Originally Posted by NY Times.

the estimated 1.2 million at the site.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/13/nyregion/nation-challenged-site-slowed-site-s-fragility-heavy-lifting-has-only-begun.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by New York mag.

Tons of debris removed from site: 1,506,124.
http://nymag.com/news/articles/wtc/1year/numbers.htm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 911 memorial.

1.8 million tons from the WTC site.
http://www.911memorial.org/rescue-recovery

Some weird numbers? The biggest diffence is 600,000 ton or more???

Maybe you can find some answers here.
http://letsrollforums.com/mayor-giul...10-t25683.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telegraph UK on september 29, 2001.

THE theft of more than 250 tons of steel from the ruins of the World Trade Centre is being investigated by the FBI and New York police who believe that it was organised by one of the city's Mafia families.

Material from the scene of the September 11 terrorist attack, consisting mainly of steel girders, was discovered earlier this week at three scrapyards, two in New Jersey and one on Long Island.

It appears that the scrap was hauled away by trucks involved in the clear-up operation. But instead of being taken to the FBI-controlled dump on Staten Island where all the material is being stored and sifted it was driven directly to the independently-owned scrapyards.

Police sources said yesterday that no human remains were in the scrap. One detective said: "It does make you wonder, though, how low some people will stoop.

"This was a disgusting crime aimed solely at deriving financial gain from the scene of our nation's greatest tragedy. It is difficult to control the movement of material because there is so much of it.

Even so, it's hard to believe that with more than 6,000 people dead, it would be taken for profit." A grand jury is being convened in New York to look at the evidence gathered by the New York Police Department, the FBI and the state's Trade Waste Commission.

It is estimated that the scrap metal value of the 255 tons so far recovered would be about £10,000. The detective said: "That is not a great deal in itself but the operation to steal from the WTC was obviously not going to be limited to the 255 tons we have found."

Police are understood to be looking at the role of known associates of some of the city's five Mafia families, who have decades-long connections with the waste disposal business and whose stranglehold on rubbish collections in New York was broken by the current mayor, Rudy Giuliani.

Officers working on a tip-off found 75 tons of material at a scrapyard in Deer Park, Long Island, on Monday. They subsequently raided two New Jersey scrapyards and found another 180 tons.

Trucks delivering rubble from the site of the tragedy in lower Manhattan to the Fresh Kills landfill site on Staten Island are now getting official escorts but, until last week, trucks were travelling alone.

There have been other reports of thefts from the World Trade Centre site, including watches stolen from a shop in an underground mall. Souvenir-hunters have also been caught taking pieces of the rubble from the flatbed trucks hauling it away.

So far, about 130,000 tons of the debris have been removed after the recovery of 306 bodies and many hundreds of body parts. Officials now estimate that more than a million tons of rubble remain, almost twice the original estimate.

Mr Giuliani said yesterday that it could take more than a year for the site to be cleared. New and contradictory figures emerged yesterday over the number of people still listed as missing in the World Trade Centre since the attack.

The official police estimate currently stands at 5,960, but the total recorded at the families' centre in New York is 4,260. Mr Giuliani said the true figure, which includes those killed in the two aircraft and the bodies recovered, "probably lies somewhere between the two".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rom-ruins.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Jayhan

That's how they built the hollow towers in case anyone here doesn't realize this yet.

Organized crime built the towers, helped bring them down, helped clear the debris pile, and is now helping in the construction of the new "freedom tower."

These Italians sure did a good job with removing that steel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABC news

During the recovery effort, 5,476 trucks have removed 76,459 tons of debris from the site. But an estimated 1 million to 2 million tons remain, and officials have said it will take at least six months to clear it all.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92454&page=1

5.476 trucks times 2 = 10.952 X 10 = 109.520 trucks.
76.459 tons times 2 = 152.918 X 10 = 1.529.180 tons.
+ 480 trucks to complete the 110.000 trucks x 16,4 ton a truck. Makes a total of 1.537.052 Ton.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fema

Compared to the typical USACE response operations, it was a small scale disaster; yet, it was the largest search and rescue and debris removal mission in U.S. history. As of May 21, 2002, 1,625,550 tons of debris had been removed from the WTC site.
Source

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEC New York

Fresh Kills Landfill, once the largest operating landfill in the state, ceased receiving the city's municipal solid waste on March 22, 2001. Following the collapse of the World Trade Center, the landfill was reopened to receive disaster debris for staging, searching, recovery and later for disposal. In all, approximately 1,650,000 tons of debris and steel were taken to the landfill.
http://www.dec.ny.gov/chemical/8498.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillips & Jordan inc

At the close of the project the Landfill had received and processed over 1,462,000 tons of debris, over 55,000 discrete pieces of evidence had been found, 4,257 body parts had been recovered, and 209 victims had been positively identified. In addition to awards from the NYPD and FBI we earned an Outstanding Performance Evaluation from the Corps and were named National Civil Works Contractor of the Year.
http://www.pandj.com/markets/project...x?jn=PIRS00008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harvard news about Phillips & Jordan inc

In the end, the company removed 1.2 tons of debris, 125,000 tons of glass, 250 tons of steel, 450 cubic yards of concrete, 12,000 miles of electrical cable, and 198 miles of ductwork.
Because the World Trade Center was a crime scene, Phillips & Jordan created a 3,000-acre facility at a Staten Island landfill to sort debris for evidence and human remains. A medical examiner and an anthropologist examined bones to ensure that they were human.
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/stor...rganize-chaos/

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBI New York

The FBI immediately started planning the staggering task of sifting through 1.8 million tons of debris from the World Trade Center. The men and women of the FBI vowed to recover as many remains of the victims and their personal belongings as possible. They also had to collect evidence to identify everyone responsible.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/ten-year...e-and-recovery

I like so called "official sources"! So, if they say "1,8 million"...it would be 1,8 million.

1,537,052 ton is hauled away from Ground Zero, the estimate was 1,6 million or 1,8 million ton by much authorities. Either way there is a hugh amount of WTC steel missing....

Quote:

The bulk of the steel was apparently shipped to China and India. The Chinese firm Baosteel purchased 50,000 tons at a rate of $120 per ton, compared to an average price of $160 paid by local mills in the previous year.
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/groundzero/cleanup.html

1 truck full with steel for "Gino"...and 9 trucks for the city, 1 truck for "Luka" 9 trucks for the city, 1 truck for "Mario"....and 9 trucks for the city etcetcetc, and that while the rates were around the $120,- a ton.

Quote:

As a result, asbestos-containing products like insulation, drywall, steel and fireproofing materials were incorporated into a number of structures within the World Trade Center buildings. An estimated 400 tons of asbestos were used.
http://www.asbestos.com/world-trade-center/

We have seen quite a few different numbers, maybe to cover up the 400 ton of asbestos. Just a thought.

**caveman** · 23 Aug 2012 , 08:33 AM

Dr. Fubar, you are right.

If you compare the number given in de letter to the governor with the confidential situation report #13 (see below), the numbers match up quite well.

First of all the front page (so you can see where these number came from in the first place):

and here is the exact number given by the OEM on page 3, which is of course the number for september 18th.

Kind request for now:
May I ask (as initiator of this thread) not to go offtopic further regarding the amount of debris. If needed we can open a seperate thread on that one. I would like to keep this thread on the issue of the black boxes and the new finding that a signal has been tracked on or before September 18th.

So what do we know...

Fact 1. Black boxes.
Black boxes are designed to survive a whole scala of disasters. Of course there are examples where the black boxes have not be retrieved, but in most cases is it not the actual retrieval of the black boxes that is an issue. When there is trouble regarding black boxes it has to do with data not being able to be read etc.

Black boxes are installed in the back of the plane to enhance the chances of them actually surviving the disaster.

Fact 2. Broad attention towards finding the boxes.
In the aftermath of 9/11 broad attention was given to make rescueworkers aware of the fact that retrieving these boxes was considered vital.

As example: this poster was being spread:

Quote:

Transcript: MISSING FLIGHT RECORDERS
(BLACK BOXES)

ATTENTION: If above units or components, including loose circuit boards or 3.5" magnetic tape reels, are found, document location, secure immediately and provide to the FBI. Items may be blackened, charred or rusted in appearance with no discernable lettering.

Fact 3. On or before September 18th, signal was detected.
The letter of director of OEM of NY send to the governor states clearly (even as first item in this 'fairly' important' document) that investigators have tracked a signal from one of the black boxes.

Fact 4. Reports by New York Times.
On September 19th, the New York Times reports the following:

Quote:

One encouraging bit of news, at least for the investigation, came late yesterday, when a law enforcement official said the ''pinging'' of a black box from a hijacked plane might have been detected.

''They are picking up some pinging, but there is so much stuff on top of it, including ironwork, that it will take some time for them to get to it,'' the official said.

(ref: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/19/nyregion/a-nation-challenged-the-site-at-the-site-little-hope-of-uncovering-survivors.html?scp=732&sq=&pagewanted=1)

Fact 5. DeMasi and Bellone
Both DeMasi and Bellone stated that black boxes were indeed recovered, Bellone only having seen one of them, DeMasi having accompanied the FBI personell that actually retrieved the boxes.

Fact 6. Official Report 9/11 commission.
A footnote to the official 9/11 commission report states:

Quote:

“The CVRs and FDRs from American 11 and United 175” - the two planes that hit the Trade Center - “were not found.”

Fact 7. Black Box flight 93.
The black box of flight 93 (or some say: alleged black bo

has been recovered.

Fact 8. Dan Rather.
At some point (we do not know exactly which date/time yet, some sites mention September 12 th) Dan Rather of CBS announced that one of the black boxes was found.
Some minutes Dan Rather apoligized and said he made a mistake.

Initiatial announcement: download FLV
Apologies and no box found: download FLV

Main question. Where do we go from here?

I see that we should consider aiming a FOIA request which pinpoints exactly to these matters. Questions must be answered, like:

- Who were the 'investigators' from which the director of OEM got the news that one of the beacons was beeping?
- Who was the source of the New York Times who said there was beeping, but still a lot of digging needed to be done.

Any suggestions to take this to a deeper level?

Caveman

@Andy. I see no reason why on September 18th actual resque operations at the WTC would suffer from exersize drills from 9/11 (regarding the point of one of the boxes beacons beeping). If the director of OEM states to the governor that investigators have identified a beacon beeping, it's the real thing beeping, not an exersize

Dr FUBAR · 23 Aug 2012 , 10:08 AM

Quote:

Kind request for now:
May I ask (as initiator of this thread) not to go offtopic further regarding the amount of debris. If needed we can open a seperate thread on that one. I would like to keep this thread on the issue of the black boxes and the new finding that a signal has been tracked on or before September 18th.

No problem! Got a little carried away!?

Now back on topic all.

Saoirse · 23 Aug 2012 , 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by do2read

Yes, I will say that the first item in the document is a hoax, there were no black boxes. Certainly none that arrived by airplane.

Caveman, I don't mean to put a damper on your research and enthusiasm but I think it's important that we don't get sidetracked by digressionary tactics of the 9/11 hoaxers.

**caveman** · 23 Aug 2012 , 11:59 AM

@Saoirse: I understand your point from the belief that no commercial airliner did hit the WTC. However, i am purely investigating whether or not documentation from one or the other agency contradicts the story of another agency.
While this finding of official mentioning of the beacons of the flight recorders might be only a small issue for the event as a whole, I think is it worthy investigating why the director of OEM of NY reports to the governor about the beacon of one of the flight recorders being 'active' and the NTSB denying any flightrecorder was being presented to them by the FBI.

Exact date of retrieval of the black boxes.

As a matter of fact I can pretty well pinpoint the date that most likely the flightrecorders WERE found.

Soon after all search and rescue operations started, we see the first reports of the NTSB being present at the site.
The meeting minutes of september 24th show the NTSB being present and requesting assistance in case the black boxes are to be recovered.

From the NYFD Incident Action Plan from september 25th we learn that the NTSB is planning to set up 'observation points'.

From the NYFD Incident Action Plan from september 25th we learn that five (5) observation points are active, and a sixth is on it way to be realised.

By september 28th all six observation points are active, as we read in the NYFD documentation for that day:

From this day on the six observation points are mentioned every day in the FDNY documentation, like for example september 30th:

Just to check if everything is still in place we check the docs on october 3th: a number of 6 camera points (tracking stations) are still in place:

Watch out, major clue arriving shortly!

On oktober 21th still a number of five (5) monitoring stations is active. (I've been told that the sixt location had to be given up because of changes in the crane plan for Ground Zero...)

But... What happens at october 22th?

All but two monitoring stations have been removed.

Clearly 'five' was still in the original papers handed to all chiefs at the meeting, however, during the meeting it was announced that in stead of 5 stations only 2 stations remain.

As of october 23th, the number of stations operational to assist in the retrieval of the flight data recorders is as low as 2:

I have yet to fight myself through another pile of action reports and other 9/11 stuff, but I have the following hypothesis:

The black box or boxes that were being mentioned by DeMasi and Bellone were retrieved at october 21th, 2001.

Caveman

Orion67 · 23 Aug 2012 , 14:18 PM

Over a month after collapse and they still needed water cannons to douse the fires?

That's some fire!!

22 Aug 2012 , 19:50 PM	#2
clive Privileged Join Date: 3 Jul 2010 Location: Down Under Land Posts: 2,675 Threads: 207 Blog Entries: 153 Thanked 5,594 Times in 2,062 Posts	Re: Investigators have identified the signal from one of the black boxes in the WTC Great find caveman. __________________ Any man can overcome adversity. If you truly want to test a man's character, give him power." — Abraham Lincoln

22 Aug 2012 , 22:10 PM	#3
andy tyme Thinker Join Date: 14 Feb 2011 Posts: 160 Threads: 0 Thanked 279 Times in 103 Posts	Re: Investigators have identified the signal from one of the black boxes in the WTC Keep in mind the strong possibility that at least one (and probably several) of the various, overlapping "hijacking and plane-crashing war games" being conducted on the morning of 9/11 involved the hunt for, and discovery of, black boxes. This very interesting material you have uncovered may actually be based on quotes or paraphrases from the covert 9/11 script. In other words, there could still have been no real planes... or black boxes for that matter -- but the game players had been initially instructed to pretend there were. And so their "going through the motions" became a part of the historical document trail that the post-facto "investigators" eventually decided it was best to ignore.

22 Aug 2012 , 22:24 PM	#4
do2read Admin Join Date: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 3,520 Threads: 113 Thanked 9,863 Times in 2,648 Posts	Re: Investigators have identified the signal from one of the black boxes in the WTC Yes, I will say that the first item in the document is a hoax, there were no black boxes. Certainly none that arrived by airplane. Another one I like is that 46,760 tons of debris were removed in a 12 hour period. A Tri-axle dump truck is usually set up to carry a 20-22 ton load. The size of the bed is set up such that a load of dense graded stone (with nearly no air) will produce such a weight. A load of debris has many materials lighter than rock, and also has a lot of air space between items, reducing weight. A more realistic weight for a debris truck would be 15 tons max. Even at 22 tons, it would take 2,125 loads in a 12 hour period, or an average of 177 loads per hour. Totally impossible. 3 loads leaving each minute, and that is giving all benefits of doubt. If they were talking about steel beams, we have seen the way they were carefully loaded. We could study the photos and look up the brand of truck and trailer to determine the load but it would be easier to generously estimate.Trailers are designed for the normal maximum legal weight limits. Even if the legal limits were suspended, the trailers would carry 35 tons. Even at 35 tons, it would take 1,336 loads in 12 hours, 111 loads per hour. Each load had to be rigged by men at the pile,picked up by a crane (we have seen these beams handled by cranes) carefully lowered onto the trucks. Some were also handled by teams of two large excavators with Pinchers, also not a rapid process. This process would have to be completed every 30 seconds to produce these results, and again, with the number of cranes and excavators on site, this is ridiculous. Since both alternatives are unachievable, there can be no combination of the two that could move this kind of debris in that time frame. Don't forget that all of this material had to be off loaded at Pier 25 too, in the same time frame. There are certainly not enough cranes on the Pier to once again move this material in such a preposterous time span. Looks like once again, in the early days after 9/11, they are caught protesting too much. Stephanopoulis and Giuliani were already explaining the small debris pile on the morning of 9/12, when nobody was asking. Kinda like blurting out "I didn't do it" before any one asks. Here they are at it again. Throwing out absurd figures to over sell the idea that there was a huge pile, which had disappeared rapidly. We have proven over and over that neither was the case. There is no indication of trucks leaving the site at that pace, there would have been a steady stream. They knew the debris pile was their Achilles Heel. They had to sell it at every opportunity. That document they provided is nearly a farce. They may as well claim Godzilla ate the debris overnight. Thanks for posting it caveman. Tell a very Big Lie, repeat it often. 46,760 tons. Right. l __________________ "Don't worry about it - Americans don't read." Allan Dulles ...

23 Aug 2012 , 11:59 AM	#9
caveman Reader Join Date: 28 Jan 2012 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 16 Threads: 4 Thanked 45 Times in 13 Posts	Re: Investigators have identified the signal from one of the black boxes in the WTC @Saoirse: I understand your point from the belief that no commercial airliner did hit the WTC. However, i am purely investigating whether or not documentation from one or the other agency contradicts the story of another agency. While this finding of official mentioning of the beacons of the flight recorders might be only a small issue for the event as a whole, I think is it worthy investigating why the director of OEM of NY reports to the governor about the beacon of one of the flight recorders being 'active' and the NTSB denying any flightrecorder was being presented to them by the FBI. Exact date of retrieval of the black boxes. As a matter of fact I can pretty well pinpoint the date that most likely the flightrecorders WERE found. Soon after all search and rescue operations started, we see the first reports of the NTSB being present at the site. The meeting minutes of september 24th show the NTSB being present and requesting assistance in case the black boxes are to be recovered. From the NYFD Incident Action Plan from september 25th we learn that the NTSB is planning to set up 'observation points'. From the NYFD Incident Action Plan from september 25th we learn that five (5) observation points are active, and a sixth is on it way to be realised. By september 28th all six observation points are active, as we read in the NYFD documentation for that day: From this day on the six observation points are mentioned every day in the FDNY documentation, like for example september 30th: Just to check if everything is still in place we check the docs on october 3th: a number of 6 camera points (tracking stations) are still in place: Watch out, major clue arriving shortly! On oktober 21th still a number of five (5) monitoring stations is active. (I've been told that the sixt location had to be given up because of changes in the crane plan for Ground Zero...) But... What happens at october 22th? All but two monitoring stations have been removed. Clearly 'five' was still in the original papers handed to all chiefs at the meeting, however, during the meeting it was announced that in stead of 5 stations only 2 stations remain. As of october 23th, the number of stations operational to assist in the retrieval of the flight data recorders is as low as 2: I have yet to fight myself through another pile of action reports and other 9/11 stuff, but I have the following hypothesis: The black box or boxes that were being mentioned by DeMasi and Bellone were retrieved at october 21th, 2001. Caveman

23 Aug 2012 , 14:18 PM	#10
Orion67 Privileged Join Date: 11 Sep 2010 Posts: 1,044 Threads: 67 Thanked 1,973 Times in 732 Posts	Re: Investigators have identified the signal from one of the black boxes in the WTC Over a month after collapse and they still needed water cannons to douse the fires? That's some fire!!

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