 17 Jul 2010
, 00:28 AM
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New York City - Death Certificates Issued - Various sources;
Many here have been clamoring for the death certificate information regarding the victims allegedly killed at ground zero on 9/11. So I took the time to create this post to fill that information need,and hope others here will do their own research and add to this thread until we know all that we want to know.
Not surprisingly, there are many various numbers reported killed by different news organizations and agencies. BUT, this starts with the official records from the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner of New York City, James R. Gill. **Also note, CNN is conspicuously absent from the news agencies listed. Cheers- Phil  Original link:  PDF (125.3 KB) Original Article 9/11 and the New York City Office of Chief Medical Examiner James R. Gill1, 2  (1) Office of Chief Medical Examiner, 520 First Avenue, 10016 New York, NY (2) Department of Forensic Medicine, New York University School of Medicine, New York, NY Accepted: 18 November 2005 Abstract On September 11, 2001 two hijacked airplanes struck the Twin Towers at the World Trade Center in New York City. All of the remains (19,915) were examined by the Office of Chief Medical Examiner (OCME) of New York City. The major goals of the OCME were to accurately identify the decedents and to promptly issue death certificates. As of September 2005, there were 1594 identifications of a total of 2749 people reported missing. Of these, 976 were identified by a single means, which included DNA analysis in 852 of the victims. Use of legal statues can assist in the timely issuance of death certificates in mass fatalities, which benefit surviving family members. DNA analysis markedly improves the ability to identify remains and has become the standard method for identification in these types of disasters. Certain postmortem tissue samples are better suited for DNA analysis and yield better results than others. Key Words Forensic pathology - terrorism - fatalities - mass disaster James R. GillEmail: jgill@ocme.nyc.gov Fulltext Preview (Small, Large) Original link WTC 7 net: NYC Victims Who was Killed in the 9/11/01 Attack on New York City It is obvious that the number of people in New York City killed by the September 11th attack will never be known. Even ignoring the long-term death toll from exposure to toxins in the monster dust clouds and smoldering ruins, determining exactly who was killed by the immediate effects of the attack will forever elude historians. Despite the modern techniques for identifying bodies, the incredible vaporization of bodies at Ground Zero prevented the identification of over 1000 people. Also, an unknown number of undocumented workers were killed in the attack. The official effort to identify victims went on for 3-1/2 years, ending with an announcement by the medical examiner's office in late February of 2005 that the remaining victims would probably never be identified. The lingering uncertainty about the exact death toll, and the lack of closure for the families of more than 1000 victims who would never receive so much as a bone fragment to bury, is one of many uniquely traumatic aspects of the attack. 1,616 death certificates were issued without the identification of a body at the request of victims' families. 1 Estimates of the dead gradually declined in the years after the attack, eventually settling to a number around 2,750. On the day of the attack, news anchors speculated that the dead might number in the tens of thousands. Some of the estimates of the death toll in New York City at various times are as follows:
USA TODAY documented 1,434 who died in the North Tower and 599 who died in the South Tower. Of the people who died in or around the buildings, 479 were public service personnel such as firefighters or police officers. 5 The Times estimated that 121 firefighters died in the North Tower when it collapsed. A Cross-Section of the Global Community Many countries were represented by the victims of the attack on the World Trade Center. The New York City Health Department released a report based on 2,617 death certificates filed for the victims through Jan. 25, 2002. The report covers more than 90 percent of the estimated deaths and includes the victims on the planes. By birthplace, the breakdown is as follows. 6
1. 9/11 in numbers, observer.guardian.co.uk, 8/18/02 [cached] 2. Closure from 9/11 elusive for many, USAToday, 9/3/01 [cached] 3. A Miracle's Cost, time.com, 9/1/02 [cached] 4. Forensic Identification of 9/11 Victims Ends, abcnews.com, 2/23/05 [cached] 5. For Many on Sept. 11, Survival Was No Accident, usatoday.com, 12/20/01 [cached] 6. , New York Times, 4/19/02 Original link WTC 7.net: Passenger Lists Victims Lists, Passenger Manifests, and the Alleged Hijackers According to the official story, teams of four and five Islamic hijackers took over Flights 11, 175, 77, and 93. Victims lists for the four planes published by CNN and elsewhere are free of Arab names. 1 2 3 4 This fact has been highlighted as suspicious by some researchers describing the lists as passenger manifests. However, these lists are not passenger manifests, but lists of victims, and hence include an implicit rationale for excluding alleged hijackers. In a different part of the CNN.com website not directly referenced by the above-mentioned flight victims pages -- that entitled "September 11: A Memorial" -- CNN describes its criteria for including persons in its memorial in a pop-up window labeled "About this site":
Moussaoui Trial Exhibits In July of 2006 a large collection of documents was published on a website containing prosecution and defense exhibits for the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui. 6 Included in the prosecution exhibits are a set of Flash presentations detailing the government's account of the passengers on all four commandeered jetliners. 7 The following table contains a snapshot from the Flash presentation for each of the four flights, providing a list of passengers and seat assignments.  American Airlines Flight 11  United Airlines Flight 175  American Airlines Flight 77  United Airlines Flight 93 Faxes of Alleged Flight Manifests At around the time that the Moussaoui trial exhibits appeared, a seven-page set of faxes purported to be the original flight manifests was published on a weblog claiming that they were from the Moussaoui trial exhibits. If the faxes are in the exhibits, they are not easy to find: the prosecution trial exhibits number 977, and include many huge, uninformatively-described files requiring media players such as Flash to view. 8 According to the 911myths.com website the fax images were obtained from the FBI by Terry McDermott while researching his book Perfect Soldiers. 9 The faxes, reproduced below, include the names of the alleged hijackers.    American Airlines Flight 11  United Airlines Flight 175   American Airlines Flight 77  United Airlines Flight 93 Other Questions About the Alleged Hijackers The highlighting of the absence of Arab names on victims lists as suspicious may reflect erroneous assumptions, but there are several other facts that undermine the credibility of the FBI's published list of suspects. One is the existence of a handful of reports in mainstream newspapers of those suspects proclaiming their innocence after the attack. 10 11 Six of the 19 suicide hijackers identified by the FBI shortly after the attack by name, photograph, and other personal details reported themselves alive. 12 Another is the reported lack of piloting skills of the suspects. References 1. AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT 11, cnn.com, [cached] 2. AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT 77, cnn.com, [cached] 3. UNITED AIRLINES FLIGHT 175, cnn.com, [cached] 4. UNITED AIRLINES FLIGHT 93, cnn.com, [cached] 5. September 11: A Memorial, CNN.com, 6. United States v. Zacarias Moussaoui Criminal No. 01-455-A Trial Exhibits, www.vaed.uscourts.gov, 7/31/06 7. Exhibit Number OG00010, United States v. Zacarias Moussaoui [...] Trial Exhibits, www.vaed.uscourts.gov, 7/31/06 8. Prosecution Trial Exhibits, United States v. Zacarias Moussaoui [...] Trial Exhibits, www.vaed.uscourts.gov, 7/31/06 9. The Passengers, 911myths.com, 10. The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions, , page 23 11. Tracking the 19 Hijackers What are they up to now? ..., welfarestate.com, [cached] 12. Alleged Hijackers Alive and Well, The World Messenger, [cached] __________________
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20 Jul 2010
, 00:03 AM
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And for the record, you've said you found one government/other site which said 3 NYC regular death certs and 1200 with nothing and 1600 with "ID" of some kind (DNA and/or something else).
Your testimony would be important in court, for your having seen that. It is evidence (called "contrary to tendency", if I recall): that is, it stands out as maybe true, for it is unlike the rest of the story in a key way which busts one hypothesis (that of the gov't story, in this case). |
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8 Nov 2010
, 03:30 AM
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Talk of 'Vaporized' People' in WTC Collapse at the WTC on 9/11
3rd copy and paste of this article, but it is needed in all three research articles; Quite relevant; Plus I was looking for this article anyway.
Cheers- phil Original link: September 30, 2004  Charles Hirsch – New York Chief Medical Examiner Talk turns grisly in discussion of recovering 'vaporized' Trade Center victims, the federal cyber-security boss wants high-speed Internet providers to do more for Net security, doctors are preparing for a bioterror attack at the Salt Lake City Olympics, and the tabloid publisher hit by anthrax may leave Florida. Talk of 'Vaporized' People' in WTC Collapse By Richard Pyle Associated Press Tuesday, December 4, 2001; 2:21 PM NEW YORK – Three months after the World Trade Center attack, victims' families are being forced to face the ghastly possibility that many of the dead were "vaporized," as Chief Medical Examiner Charles Hirsch put it, and may never be identified. So far, fewer than 500 victims have been positively identified out of the roughly 3,000 feared dead. Sixty were identified solely through DNA. The city and state have allowed victims' families to obtain death certificates without proof of a body, but many families place great importance on an ID based on actual remains. "Until you have something tangible, you just keep hoping – maybe there'll be some sort of miracle," said Jeanne Maurer, whose 31-year-old daughter, Jill Campbell, is presumed dead. "You can't accept it until you have something. "I still say, 'My daughter's missing,'" Maurer said. Many victims will undoubtedly be identified. Nearly 10,000 body parts have been pulled from the mountains of mangled metal and matchstick-size splinters at ground zero. But Dr. Charles Hirsch, the chief medical examiner, triggered an angry response two weeks ago when he told grieving relatives that many bodies – no one is sure how many – had been "vaporized" and were beyond identification. Hirsch declined to be interviewed. But spokeswoman Ellen Borakove said he meant that bodies were consumed by blazing fuel from the two crashed airliners, or "rendered into dust" when the 1,100-foot skyscrapers collapsed, one concrete slab floor onto another. Dr. Michael Baden*, the state's chief forensic pathologist and a top expert in the field, said in September that most bodies should be identifiable because the fires – while hot enough to melt steel – did not reach the 3,200-degree, 30-minute level necessary to incinerate a body. Borakove said her office agrees with Baden's calculation – as applied to a full body. "But when the planes hit the buildings, the bodies that were in the planes as well as some of the bodies that were in the buildings were fragmented upon impact, and those fragments burn more quickly," she said. *Michael Baden is a former NY Chief Medical Examiner. He is a famed forensic pathologist, involved with many high-profile cases: John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King, O.J. Simpson, John Belushi, Sid Vicious, Anne Nicole Smith, etc… __________________
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8 Nov 2010
, 05:21 AM
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Re: New York City - Death Certificates Issued - Various sources;
While I was researchin about the fake flight 11 seatbelt at the smithsonian,,I came across this(glad I wordpadded the url)
http://books.google.com/books?id=xQY...page&q&f=false Also about Hirsh http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/ref...sch/index.html Mind you ,,I dont believe any of it...but I thought I would throw this out at ya.. Apparently this one cop wasnt good enough for victims comp.. |
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8 Nov 2010
, 08:04 AM
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Re: New York City - Death Certificates Issued - Various sources;
For a supposedly true story, there are an awful lot of versions.
I would say it was critical that each news agency report different numbers, not my mistake of incompetence at all. A universal number of dead would give investigators a bottom line. The ambiguity of the very total makes it impossible to know even who all of the victims were, since no one list is "right". Without a total for certain, if you're caught later, you could always add or subtract someone from the list. The excuse would always be that the scale never before seen is the reason for the unbelievably poor handling of "remains" and records. They were great liars, as they planned their excuses beforehand. l __________________
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28 Feb 2011
, 05:34 AM
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Re: New York City - Death Certificates Issued - Various sources;
I checked the six victims that died in the 1993 bombing of the WTC and only one shows up in the Social Security Death Index:
DIGIOVANNI, JOHN15 Jul 194726 Feb 199345(not specified)(none specified)New York  |
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