I take it you believe that people only turn to God in time of turmoil. I was lead to my faith through an honest search for the truth. And at the time of my awakening, was quite full of myself! (I suspect that many believers have experienced the same, though not at the level I was at.)

FYI, those calling themselves "unitarians" are the original CATHOLICS.
My father was a Unitarian, and had no more use for Jesus Christ than you do. Either Catholicism has changed dramatically, or he was a lousy Unitarian.

I'm not an evangelist, not going to try and convert you. I don't personally like the gospel, don't find it appealing, but nonetheless, find it to be true. I can certainly understand why people don't want to believe it.

thanks for directing me to the Codex Sinaiticus and also the Codex Vaticanus, I am always interested in hearing other viewpoints.
I 've even suffered through the writings of the so-called "Jesus Seminar" and tried reading the Talmud, which is the only book I have put down in utter disgust.

__________________
A LIE BELIEVED BY EVERYBODY IS NOT THE TRUTH

Ummm, actually the oldest new testament book was 1st Corinthians, which was written by Paul around 51-55ad, about 20+ years after the crucifixion and many of Paul's writings were WAY before the Roman Church ever existed.


Dfrank

__________________
"My people die because of lack of knowledge." Hosea 4:6

dfrankl4,

Well it is said that 1st Corinthians is thought to be written around that time, but it is pure heresay as there is no actual claimed original texts, dated by c14 or paleography to support it. Odd too that the first "valid" mention of any of Pauls alleged "writings, is no earlier than the 2nd century AD, where mentined by Marcion - excomunicated by the catholic church in 144CE, Prior to that there was a void of his name ever being mentioned whereby showing no knowledge of this particular apostle. Prior to that the only even semi viable "witness" of Paul, is Clement of Rome, whose own letter to the Corinthians mentions a single "epistle of Paul" (1 Clement 47.1). 1 Clement also provides the novel information that Paul had been "driven into exile ...(and) reached the farthest bounds of the West" (5.5,6) – adventures unconfirmed either by Acts or Paul himself! Yet "Clement" himself is something of a phantom, despite claims that he was an early "pope". His epistle is usually claimed to be dated to 95 AD but the earliest extant copy (in the Codex Alexandrinus) dates from the 5th century and the earliest reference to 1 Clement is made in the 4th century history of Eusebius.

Before you jump in and mention the Revelations of John, yes certainly, John did mention apostles, but never Paul. The apocalyptic writings even mentions a "faithful martyr" but this is not Paul but "Antipas" (2.13) – a saint otherwise unknown outside of Orthodox fiction. Though the Revelation has precious few words that pertain to the known universe, it does twice mention an obscure sect, the Nicolaitanes, who it seems, were hated by the divine "Alpha and Omega". But Paul, the alleged founder of churches and apostle who bestrides the whole New Testament, does not merit a mention. Even Pauls alleged execution in Rome, doesn't even raise a "pip" out of John. zip, nada zilch.. and as we know, John was BIG on martydom. Odd that, considering his "letters" were allegedly written prior?

Why do you think that would be, dfrankl4?




Perhaps though dfrankl4, as you are making the above claim, you could lead me to a site which states they have copies of the ACTUAL original Pauline writings, dated to these dates you mention? I am more than interested to broaden my knowledge base in this area.



PS to trueblue. Will reply to you later. My kids just got home from school.

I will reply in red to differentiate between the already existing text. Considering the jesus Seminar comment, how appropriate! lol BTW MY OWN comments CAN be validated and verified

Oh no. jc or any "god" belief, can come from many areas, whether it be upbringing, married into the quagmire (as in my case) or life "low-ebb" - as in addiction, other life trauma, as in divorce or significant death experience, whether of a loved one or own DNE- or from a self delusionary state, whether it be extreme narcissism, ie; "full of ones self". Basically, as to the latter, if life was all "good" and going along swimingly in reality, then a search for an alternate alleged "truth" would not even enter into the equation, as there would be no need TO search for any claimed betterment. Has that state of mind been dealt with as yet, trueblue or is your"faith" merely masking it? (I ask on a professional level as one 'crutch", whether it be addiction or delusional more often than not, is merely replaced with another). Either way, ANY god belief in our day and age comes merely from a taught concept, that "X" exists and in christianity's case, because the bible says so, coupled with a 'promise" of something better whether in this life or "after, or else lake of fire death 'after"'.

This too means that jc-bible god belief is not a reflex or "gut" reaction to believe or do. IF god/jc belief was born into humans instinctively, there would be no reason for missionaries (for example) to go to far flung areas of africa etc to spread the alleged "good word".

Different church doctrine tends to in most cases to "go with the flow" and change with the tide in certain ways, but perhaps your dad was just a lousy Unitarian as they hold jc in VERY high regard, or perhaps , he followed Unitarian Universalism, rather than being an Unitarian? Significant difference, Trueblue.


trueblue wrote:Trueblue, I know you aren't trying to covert me back there, however if you were trying to you couldn't, as clarity is much more levelling than your alleged truth (no offence meant). I merely see this as an exchange of information exercise and that being the case, if you have anything to affirm your position, please present it. However the irony is, with your belief, all you have to go by as ANYTHING to support the existence of jc IS the gospels. There is nothing else to support it; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people, who as far as even apologetic biblical scholars claim weren't alive in bible jesus's purported lifetime anyway.

trueblue wrote: No worries. I also mentioned Codex Alexandrinus in my comments to dfrankl4, so perhaps you may want to check that out as well.



trueblue wrote:The Talmud is an entity all its own and pretty much goes to show the debauched mindset of those putting their own interpretations on claimed "god inspired" comment. As with the "jesus Seminar", It in itself is laughable no matter which angle "of" it attempts to persue, as it goes on "what jesus said", which is is irrelevant as the alleged jesus NEVER actually "SAID" anything. No "gospel of jc" available, is there? Anything claimed to be "from" jc is mere heresay, so the red can be removed entirely anyway! Looks like Funk didn't take that important info into account in his ramblings and that being the case, I still to this day have no idea what he was attempting to "prove"..lol!

[spoil:5800682bdf]Cmar stated;
Don't know precisely what your "professional" bias is, but sounds like a pretty heavy dose of psychology. At this point, I will only address the issue quoted above, because, if you have had training or just learned this on your own, psychology is no LESS a religion than any other.
You made a number of assumptions in that quote that I recognize as indoctrinated thinking, and I DO understand how logical it sounds to you.
First of all, I was not searching for an "alternate alleged truth", just truth. Or if you prefer, knowledge. I didn't have to discard the truth I already knew for a new, alternate truth. I was as happy with my own belief system as you probably are with yours.
I didn't have to discard any of the knowledge I already had to incorporate the truth of the gospel. If I had, then the knowledge I had would have been false, and not knowledge at all. Only the context, or understanding of that knowledge changed.
In other words, more knowledge (pieces of the puzzle) led me to re-examine the claims of the Bible,which I had rejected as a "myth" decades before. But this was only possible because I was NOT fettered by religious beliefs that force one to filter knowledge through those beliefs. Your particular religion, (psychology) forces you to see everything in that manner, and leads to errors such as believing that everyone who believes the Bible needs a crutch. [/spoil:5800682bdf]

Off topic debate ~~~ which is being discussed in new thread ~~~ Star

__________________
A LIE BELIEVED BY EVERYBODY IS NOT THE TRUTH

Blue and C'mar, I do believe this is a very interesting and enlightning conversation, however I do believe that we have gone off topic concerning this Topic "New World Order of the Vatican & Her Secret Societies."

Seems we've went from The Whore and her children to "Is the bible true, but my belief system is thus".

Catch my drift?

Blue,

I'm new as a mod, but do you see my point? And maybe this could be moved to a debate forum?

I'm interested in C'mars post's as well as yours.

Just asking,

Dfrank over and out.

I agree Dfrank, and we've all agreed this is an off topic debate ~~~ which is being discussed in a new thread ~~~ Star

__________________
"My people die because of lack of knowledge." Hosea 4:6

The problem resides in its systemic nature, as eminating within the framework of a permissive corporate culture, who's response was not directed towards healing for the victims, but cover up, and now that person in charge of that process, is the Pope. Within human organizational structures, things get transmitted in strange and mysterious ways. The type of pedophilia involved, is not IMO, an issue of homosexuality repressed, or heterosexuals for whom a boy can somehow represent a sexual outlet. Pedophilia is a Satanic act, and a violent act. It's important to bear that in mind. To write it off as a byproduct of a celibate clergy doesn't pass muster I don't think, given its rampant nature, and the cover-up which cared not one iota for the innocent victims..

__________________
On the 11th day, of every monthhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q9nR...irdstage%2Ehtm
http://truthaction.org/